Freedom and Money

[purplepeepee]

Freedom aint free!

It's Taxed!

Money is evil!

America is a bad place!

So live life free!

[toman]

So don't pay your taxes. Nobody's stopping you.

[LIBRA]

Americas bad?? Go live in Iraq or something then you'll see bad!!
It has faults for sure, we need to fight to correct them as much as we can, and free is good :)

[kermit]

Freedom aint free!

It's Taxed!

Money is evil!

America is a bad place!

So live life free!


Freedom!!!!! yea right!

freedom of choice.
you choose; we decide!

[mamamia]

at least ten characters long so the thing will post

[feral]

Freedom isn't something to be bought or sold, it's a sensation to be experienced.

Taxes providing freedom? All taxes provide are more war and worthless spending.

the only freedom America gives its people, is to stand in one of its boothes and check the boxes it gives them with the pencil it give them.

And to the Iraq thing, things may be worse elsewhere, but that doesn't mean I have to like it here.

:hippie:

[purplepeepee]

Americas bad?? Go live in Iraq or something then you'll see bad!!
It has faults for sure, we need to fight to correct them as much as we can, and free is good :)

babe, I'd be happier living there! Life would be way simpler! That's my point, hello! American government is so stuck on money! Forget all that! I want to live life like the ancients! :)

[treehugger]

Treehugger shudders to think of living like the ancients...she would probably have been burned at the stake loooong ago....

[feral]

i think living like the ancients would be a lot better than the way we live now. More sense of community, relying on one another for survival. haha, and we would make music by shrieking and beating on rocks, yay.

[ShaDoW]

Hmmm...
You really think that we have it bad?...Well think about it this way; if you lived in Iraq then (if you are female) you would have no rights whatsoever, you would have to wear a heavy veil every time you went into public, and if you did not follow "their" strict set of rules you would likely be executed! is that what you consider living like the ancients!?
Granted, America has its own share of issues that need to be corrected, but that is not going to happen untill people wake up and realize that things can be far batter than what they are; then there is the problem of people not being able to work together w/out some sort of petty squabling ensuing...
I will admit that I do not have the most optimistic outlook on things of a political nature, I think it highly likely that the American government will destroy life as we know it far before anyone thinks to do anything about it. But I also have to admit that in America the people have a great many opportunities to live the life that they choose. No one can dictate your beliefs or non-beliefs or the path that you choose, they can only criticize you for it. If you think that materialistic corporate America is "evil" then do not buy into it, but that lifestyle is going to cost you as well; untill you are well "established" that is. Sooo if you want to change the system sometimes you need to keep your values in site while at the same time buying into it and taking it for what it is worth. Once you have taken the system for all you can take it for show them you can do better; spirtually, environmentally, and communally. Make an example of yourself, and it is likely that some will back you up.
Also keep in mind that the"ancients" did not have everything all that easy, hunter/gatherer societies had it quite hard... Famine, draught, disease; these were all the things they had to contend with, among other things such as predators.
I think it would be best that people keep in mind that we are all children of nature, of mother earth; as we advance technologically, spiritually, and otherwise we need to keep in mind that the care of this planet is first and foremost in our journey through this universe and on this planet. Money and material things do not help to make this world a better place; that is something that alot of people do not understand. But also keep in mind that we all have certain needs that have to be fulfilled, people, Americans espeacially, seem to have a problem differentiating between what they need to survive (clothing, food, water and clean air) and things that are merely status symbols; i.e. Excess!...

If you think the government always does wrong then stand on a soap box and say something about it, gather people to you that are passionate and wish to make a difference, but do yourself a favor and educate yourself first. If you do not have your facts straight then it is likely you will be laughed off your righteous high horse!
(Sorry guys, bit of a rant... :o )

Anyhoo, I am not pissed off this subject really got me thinking (I really need to stop doing that as much as I do; I have been told I think too much :D )...
peace
-Jess
:hippie:

[LIBRA]

Shadow, you said it perfectly!!!



babe, I'd be happier living there! Life would be way simpler! That's my point, hello! American government is so stuck on money! Forget all that! I want to live life like the ancients!

no offense but dont babe me or hello me, stuck on money yes, do you do anything to change it?? or just say like lets walk around barefoot and quit school and live off the land, get real and grow up, this is life if you dont like it raise above it and do something!!!

If you think the government always does wrong then stand on a soap box and say something about it, gather people to you that are passionate and wish to make a difference, but do yourself a favor and educate yourself first. If you do not have your facts straight then it is likely you will be laughed off your righteous high horse!

ok maybe Shadow said it better!
It is just irritating to me, that young people have so much to say but nothing to back it up, happier living in iraq, do you even know whats going on in iraq right now??? Go live there with nothing a government in progress watch you children die, sounds great, lots of freedom there but hey no tax's or money for that matter.

Really not trying to be rude, its been building up, so say whatever you want back, I really dont care.

[mamasharones]

I think it would be cool if it was like Jesus times. Where everyone walked to their destination even if it took weeks. You farmed and bartered for things you needed. Only had what you needed and nothing more. People had a lot better moral value and you could trust your neighbor (for the most part).

And yeah we can sit here and say "america sucks" and it does in some ways, but is there really any other place to go? Yes there are other places which are just as free but with every system or form of government there is always flaws in the system.... loop holes in which people take advantage. Our country has gone to shit since george bush senior and the collapse of our media. The Bill Clinton administration changed our media by abolishing the regulation of news stories which guarenteed their validity. Now we are constantly bombarted by fake news put out by the George W Bush Administration.

But think about other countries. Every one of them has drawbacks. Our country has greed as a drawback and curruption.
But Would you really want to live in Iraq? Living in an occupied country is definitely not better than living in the US right now!

[wallumi]

Hmmm...
You really think that we have it bad?...Well think about it this way; if you lived in Iraq then (if you are female) you would have no rights whatsoever, you would have to wear a heavy veil every time you went into public, and if you did not follow "their" strict set of rules you would likely be executed!

You are referring to shi'ite Iran here. Iraq. The under Saddam (who was originally put in power by the CIA) was a secular state and did not impose Shariah law upon women. It did have a high execution rate by common Western standards for 'offences' against the state, but then so does Texas.


But I also have to admit that in America the people have a great many opportunities to live the life that they choose.
The main problem with this ‘choice’ is that the most accessible and common of them are made manifest at the expense of others not in America.. Their choice and even their basic needs are removed as a consequnce.


No one can dictate your beliefs or non-beliefs or the path that you choose, they can only criticize you for it. If you think that materialistic corporate America is "evil" then do not buy into it,

The problem herein is that the dominant corporate system does dictate and forcibly impose its terms by the powerful way it leverages debt upon the community at large, facilitated though the expansion of the money system and the 'realisation' of economic growth. Not being a part of this is limited largely to conceptual rather than pragmatic exercises.


Also keep in mind that the"ancients" did not have everything all that easy, hunter/gatherer societies had it quite hard... Famine, draught, disease; these were all the things they had to contend with, among other things such as predators.

This represents a very commonly misinformed position.
Hunters and Gatherers were definitely committed to conditions and rituals far removed from our own. However the modern belief that these alien conditions were more harsh or precarious than our own is a myth borne of unfamiliarity and the propaganda spun by our own history.
Documented research (as against popular belief) indicates that Hunter Gatherer societies worked far less than we do and enjoyed high levels of resource security, physical well-being and longevity of both indiviacual and social form, as well as social equity and involvement.

For a good intro to research-based, alternative views on this see:
http://www.primitivism.com/original-affluent.htm
http://www.primitivism.com/sedentism.htm
http://www.primitivism.com/primitive-affluence.htm

And more to do with our modern core fetish than the specific condition of H&G
http://www.zpub.com/notes/black-work.html

It is evident that it was the move to agriculture that is responsible for creating chronic physical hardship though the ardous work effort required to plant, till and harvest crops, as well as to provide for the increaingly complexities of stratified society. The sedentary nature of agricultural effort exposed its proponents to famine from localised climatic variation as well as to heightened incidence of malnutrition from the narrower dietary base that subsistance agriculture generally provided.
This transition enabled the accretion of food stores which then enabled the expansion of social scale and structures of specialisation. That in turn expanded the capacity for wealth harvesting and technology development, but also heightened the society’s dependence upon that higher output. Thus whilst making surplus possible, expansion also made reliable achievement of the minimum necessary amount more demanding and precarious.
This capacity development was, by definition, controlled and crafted by those on top of the expanded, increasingly stratified social structure and thus skewed toward their elite benefit. Shortages were borne most immediately and heavily by those on the bottom rungs. This inequity was unknown in the mutually accountable and equitable politics of Hunter Gathering.

Risk of inequitable deficiency and burden was increaingly discounted by the elites as their position was further removed by increasing social expansion and stratification from the lower, ‘frontline’ classes. Aversion to escalating risk of famine and the pursuit of elite power and advantage encouraged the application of wealth surpluses toward protracted warfare and empire buiilding. Such sustained endeavors were both impossible and unnecessary within hunter gatherer structures.

In essence agriculture enables the accretion of solar energy through agrarian surplus. The inherent elite-driven politic tends to devote this surplus to the expansion of social size and activity which enhances systemic capacity to tithe, tax and rent. “Civilisation” represents the extreme development of this expansion in social size and complexity. History proves that the elevated energy requisites of this scale of society is inherently and ultimately unsustainable as every civilisation in history has collapsed through either depletion of its local resource base and/or inability to mainatin increasingly complex (and increasingly energy intensive) system function in the face of competing external forces.

Our current form of this growth fetish has taken ‘local’ to the planetary scale, so when we inevitably exhaust that local resource base we will be without any place to escape to or recover from. This planetary reach, and the impressive technology that accompanies it, is due purely to our exploitaiton of fossil fuels. We are tapping into a 300 million year old store of solar energy and confusing this limited resource with a n inalientable social capicity that we can keep developing. As soon as the fossil fuel stores begin to decline, which is not far off, the party is over.

Whilst tha t will mean facing the terrible problem of rationalising a global population that exceeds the genuine reneweable energy capacity of our bioshere by about 5 billion, the good news is that after such cataclysmic transition, Hunter/Gathering is not really such a bad lifestyle. Its socio-economic method gets bad historical press because our imperial heritage has needed to keep people believing that our current debt-driven, work laden system is the suprerior and singular means toward a fated and ultimate grail, rather than just an historically doomed transient. Admittedly this transient now being expressed at an impressively ultimate but tragically unrepeatable scale.


[QUOTE=ShaDoW]
But also keep in mind that we all have certain needs that have to be fulfilled, people, Americans espeacially, seem to have a problem differentiating between what they need to survive (clothing, food, water and clean air) and things that are merely status symbols; i.e. Excess!...
[QUOTE=ShaDoW]

The most pressing need is for us to recognise and live within renewable local energy budgets. Beyond those limits, our desires and ideals are merely dust passing rapidly from mill of time.


[QUOTE=ShaDoW]
(Sorry guys, bit of a rant... :o )
[QUOTE=ShaDoW]

One good rant deserves another. (Sorry about the length but I believe the topic is both vital and hugely misinterpreted.)

[wallumi]

Sorry also about all the spelling errors. I should preview my posts a bit more diligently (or learn to type better. :o )

[StellaBlue]

no offense but dont babe me or hello me, stuck on money yes, do you do anything to change it?? or just say like lets walk around barefoot and quit school and live off the land, get real and grow up, this is life if you dont like it raise above it and do something!!!

You said it sister. People's uninformed idealism becomes really obnoxious.

Quote:
babe, I'd be happier living there! Life would be way simpler! That's my point, hello! American government is so stuck on money! Forget all that! I want to live life like the ancients!

More power to her if she thinks life would be simpler dodging bullets and car bombs and burying your loved ones. Perhaps she doesn't watch the news?

[Jillian]

ok, i just gotta add in here....

has anyone else here been to iraq? i have...for a year. trust me on this...you DO NOT want to live there. have you ever been in a situation that you honestly thought you were going to die? now multiply it by 10 and feel that way every day. now, i'm not exactly afraid of dying because i know i'll be going to a better place, but the thought that my daughter would be raised without a mother is what really got to me.

and i know what you're thinking...this chic must be a bush backer...well, i'm not...FAR from it. i think that the war in iraq is pointless and from my view it's the vietnam of our generation (at least to a certain extent). anyway, just because i went to war doesn't mean that i absolutely love this country. but i don't hate it either. (i got sucked into a war that i don't believe in because i made a bad decision in high school.)

i wouldn't want to live anywhere else. sure things here could be better. pot and gay marriage could be legal and our government could stop trying to take away all of our privacy....however, we do have it pretty good comparitavely. i'd rather live with an overbarring government than under a blanket of mortars any day...and i can say that from experience.

jillian :hippie:

[wallumi]

i wouldn't want to live anywhere else. sure things here could be better. pot and gay marriage could be legal and our government could stop trying to take away all of our privacy....however, we do have it pretty good comparitavely. i'd rather live with an overbarring government than under a blanket of mortars any day...and i can say that from experience.
jillian :hippie:

How much of what you enjoy in the US requires your Govt to be in Iraq fighting that war?

Is it really worth it? Without serious change within US (and British and Australian, etc) daily life these wars will not stop.

Will your daughter then get sucked into going to the next one. What of the sons and daughters that cannot escape the carnage because they are born in the war zones and have to pay for our resource exploitation with their lives?

[Dead Fan]

I heard a story, and saw some pictures of a woman in Iran or Iraq who was in public without a male relative (husband, son, etc) so a group of muslim men (in the name of law) cut her body in half and put each half of her body on opposite sides of one of those saloon style swinging doors so that when they opened her body would swing in and out. Who would do that shit.

[toman]

^^^ lol....

[feral]

I have a question. When I tell people I don't like the US, why do they automatically assume I want to live in Iraq? I mean, I don't, not really. There are better places, like Europe, or Canada. So why do they always assume I would rather live in the middle east than live here?

[Jillian]

babe, I'd be happier living there! Life would be way simpler! That's my point, hello! American government is so stuck on money! Forget all that! I want to live life like the ancients! :)

feral...i believe this is where the iraq thing developed from, not from you.

[wallumi]

I heard a story, and saw some pictures of a woman in Iran or Iraq who was in public without a male relative (husband, son, etc) so a group of muslim men (in the name of law) cut her body in half and put each half of her body on opposite sides of one of those saloon style swinging doors so that when they opened her body would swing in and out. Who would do that shit.

I heard a story about a Govt. that professess freedom, but holds large numbers of foreign nationality, political prisoners in an offshore gaol without charge and without due process of law. They have been there now for over three years, all the time subject to torture and interrogation, and with no end in sight. Who would do that shit? And who would support it?

Not as gruesome as your example Dead End, but the facts of it are fully documented, rather than it being an embellished internet story as I think you will find yours is.

If it's gore that turns you on though, what about the country where young kids frequently lose it and shoot up all their classmates? And then crusty old men beat their chests and say it is important that everyone have guns in their home.

BTW, my primary point in these comments is not to dump on the US. It is to highlight the fact that we all get used to what we know, even when it is horrifying when looked at carefully or by an outsider, and we in turn judge very harshly the situations that are alien to us.

As a further example I can totally understand the horror that devout muslims (or any devout people) have when they are confronted with US (and hence most Western) media. It is mostly crass, cheaply titillating and manipulative - and that is just the adverts. Stuff that we barely even blink at.

The only way to change things without being prepared to change ourselves as well is to kill everyone else. And sadly, that latter path is what is now underway as adopted US foreign policy.

[toman]

*continues beating chest and cleaning guns*

[Dead Fan]

I heard a story about a Govt. that professess freedom, but holds large numbers of foreign nationality, political prisoners in an offshore gaol without charge and without due process of law. They have been there now for over three years, all the time subject to torture and interrogation, and with no end in sight. Who would do that shit? And who would support it?

Not as gruesome as your example Dead End, but the facts of it are fully documented, rather than it being an embellished internet story as I think you will find yours is.

If it's gore that turns you on though, what about the country where young kids frequently lose it and shoot up all their classmates? And then crusty old men beat their chests and say it is important that everyone have guns in their home.

BTW, my primary point in these comments is not to dump on the US. It is to highlight the fact that we all get used to what we know, even when it is horrifying when looked at carefully or by an outsider, and we in turn judge very harshly the situations that are alien to us.

As a further example I can totally understand the horror that devout muslims (or any devout people) have when they are confronted with US (and hence most Western) media. It is mostly crass, cheaply titillating and manipulative - and that is just the adverts. Stuff that we barely even blink at.

The only way to change things without being prepared to change ourselves as well is to kill everyone else. And sadly, that latter path is what is now underway as adopted US foreign policy.


My story wasnt to bad mouth the muslims or support the US. Thats just kind of gross. I know the US isnt perfect (nowhere near it in fact) but nowhere is.

[Dead Fan]

I have a question. When I tell people I don't like the US, why do they automatically assume I want to live in Iraq? I mean, I don't, not really. There are better places, like Europe, or Canada. So why do they always assume I would rather live in the middle east than live here?


People just assume that if you dislike America in anyway that you like Iraq better and would rather live there, whether you do or don't. If you lived thirty years ago I'm sure people were assuming that VIetnam protestors would rather live in a communist nation like Russia or China. But people will think whatever they want regardless of what otherrs say, and some will think whatever they want as long as the person they are listining too thinks the same thing.

[feral]

too true, Dead Fan, too true

[wallumi]

My story wasnt to bad mouth the muslims or dupport the US. Thats just kind of gross. I know the US isnt perfect (nowhere near it in fact) but nowhere is.

I'm glad to hear that. In context to the rest of the thread it sounded a bit like, "how gross are these people? Imagine living there."
But I accept that thread contexts get a bit fractured and that I misunderstood you.

The issue of relative social behavior and intrinsic worth is critical, but it is so often buried and covertly manipulated within the popular approach to and understanding of things.

It is well worth keeping in mind and trying at all times to ensure that others are aware of the capacity and record that large, technically sophisticated states have to commit atrocities in subtle, indirect, but devastating ways.

The direct bloodshed westerners often witness in so called 'undeveloped' societies tend to be more compelling to them than the bloody coups, resource theft, slave labour, toxic spills, etc. that our corporations & govts. commit on our behalf - keeping OUR world wealthy and safe.

One of the primary elements driving this violent delusion is scale, of society and technology. Within its massive size and momentum, we have lost contact with our leadership, with truth and responsibility in our media, and with the consequences of our technology. To keep the monster fed and moving we will accept whatever it needs to do - or be ignored or liquidated if we don't.

[PEACE FROG]

For all you that think everything sucks...... change it or get the fuck out! "Oh, Oh, I want go back and live like the ancients" What will you do when your game boy runs out of batteries? Or... (Now mind you, I am a large, well built, well armed, grown man) What if.. I forgot the words to "We are the world" and what if I came to you, destroyed your house and took everything you owned including your little girl friend. And sat there and ate your lunch right in front of you (if you know what I mean). Thats the way of the ancients cupcake! The fact that I would'nt do such a thing, is because I live in a society where there are laws and codes of conduct. Be greatful not hateful. If you want change make it happen. If this post only served you annoy you go to "hang out" and list it under "Things that annoy me". Otherwise suck it up! Youre not alone :bawl: Ed

[ShaDoW]

Nice point there Peace Frog...
:cheers:

[Dead Fan]

well put frog :group_hug

[wallumi]

Thats the way of the ancients cupcake! The fact that I would'nt do such a thing, is because I live in a society where there are laws and codes of conduct.

The barbarism you describe didn't happen all the time then and it certainly is not absent now in and as a result of our culture.

There are very common circumstances under which these things do and do not happen. Being 'ancient' does not guarantee them, and being 'modern' does not preclude them. You are generalising falsely.

The first step toward making change is recoginising and agreeing upon the nature and cost of the things needing change. The first response of those who resist change is to discredit that genuine criticism.

[PEACE FROG]

Where do you sleep? I'm coming to eat your lunch Waldo!!!!

[toman]

mmmm, lunch. :bandit:

[PEACE FROG]

The barbarism you describe didn't happen all the time then and it certainly is not absent now in and as a result of our culture.

There are very common circumstances under which these things do and do not happen. Being 'ancient' does not guarantee them, and being 'modern' does not preclude them. You are generalising falsely.

The first step toward making change is recoginising and agreeing upon the nature and cost of the things needing change. The first response of those who resist change is to discredit that genuine criticism. I don't really feel that I an generalising any more than you are, but I re-read your posts and agree with you on most points except the change thing... I think change begins in your heart. One at a time, person by person. We need to change our desires, our prejudices and the way we see one another, which is to look on one another with love as a brother. Until we can do that all "change" is cosmetic and hollow. I agree with you about Cuba BTW. I am ashamed that a free modern society would respond with midevel behavior! And nevermind about the lunch thing I'm not hungry. ;)

[feral]

For all you that think everything sucks...... change it or get the fuck out! "Oh, Oh, I want go back and live like the ancients" What will you do when your game boy runs out of batteries? Or... (Now mind you, I am a large, well built, well armed, grown man) What if.. I forgot the words to "We are the world" and what if I came to you, destroyed your house and took everything you owned including your little girl friend. And sat there and ate your lunch right in front of you (if you know what I mean). Thats the way of the ancients cupcake! The fact that I would'nt do such a thing, is because I live in a society where there are laws and codes of conduct. Be greatful not hateful. If you want change make it happen. If this post only served you annoy you go to "hang out" and list it under "Things that annoy me". Otherwise suck it up! Youre not alone :bawl: Ed


So your saying the only thing stopping you from coming over to my house, burning it down, and molesting those dear to me, is the fact that there are laws that would be broken in doing so? That sounds pretty lame to me. Granted the punishment that one would get for doing the said acts would completely suck, they should not be the only thing from stopping one from doing these things. What should stop a person is their respect for their fellow humans, not just laws.

I dunno, I don't go around destroying people's lives, even if I don't really like the person. oh, and BTW, I can't run away, there's a law that prohibits it ;) . :bandit:

[treehugger]

This is a pretty interesting thread to me. I have a couple of comments.

For me, personally, I wouldn't live in any other time or place than the one I'm in. Although I *would* like to have a more liberal government. But, meh. The pendulum will swing back to being liberal again.

Regarding barbaric behavior such as Peace Frog's comment..and societal "laws" and lack thereof...a person's culture growing up and their surroundings typically shape adult behavior. If barbarism is seen as a child, the child will tend to think that's the way things are and its normal and right...the child will tend to perpetuate it.

It's common in quite a few countries today. It wasn't too long ago we were hearing stories about the taliban that sounds quite a bit like that.

Although I'm not sure I put a lot of stock in what the media reports in passionate times such as we had post 9/11.

Barbaric behavior persists in many places today.

For me, personally, yes, I know we are destroying the world with our technology. I would like to see Americans (and the world in general) become more aware of our "throw away" culture. We walk around in a fog, order fast food or carryout food that comes in a styrofoam container and mindlessly toss the container in the trash and get carryout tomorrow again.

Some of our technology has the ability to vastly improve lives. Look at the medical advances we've had in the last century. And we're just at the tip of the iceberg.

I see, every day, evidence of our waste and our irresponsibility. I'm currently involved in a large problem at one of our buildings where a relief valve went bad and the isolation valve couldn't isolate so...put it this way...all the heating water for an eight story building that covers an entire city block...all 20,000 gallons of it, had to be drained. So. Here we are. The entire building is without reheats which, in warm weather doesn't sound bad but it really is. It's definitely worse in winter, but its still bad in the summer.

So, the ENTIRE system is empty. It took TWO full days to drain it. And the water was all treated with rust inhibitors. It ALL went down the drain to the water treatment plant.

I recommended that, while the system was down and the weather was warm and no risk of freezing up the building, that we replace that isolation valve. It's maybe an 800.00 valve and would take about a day to install it (It's really big).

I was told NOT to replace said valve because we "didn't have the manpower". So, I repaired the relief valve and started filling the system back up. Twenty four hours into filling the system, the gasket blew on the converter. And since the isolation valve wasn't replaced, guess what, folks? The entire system's going down the drain AGAIN.

40,000 gallons of water wasted now. All in the span of one week.

This *crap* happens all over, every day.

We cannot continue like this.

We need to become more aware of the ramifications of our behavior.

But, no, I do not want to live like the ancients.

Kath

[PEACE FROG]

So your saying the only thing stopping you from coming over to my house, burning it down, and molesting those dear to me, is the fact that there are laws that would be broken in doing so? That sounds pretty lame to me. Granted the punishment that one would get for doing the said acts would completely suck, they should not be the only thing from stopping one from doing these things. What should stop a person is their respect for their fellow humans, not just laws.

I dunno, I don't go around destroying people's lives, even if I don't really like the person. oh, and BTW, I can't run away, there's a law that prohibits it ;) . :bandit: Of course thats not how I feel. I was trying in vain to make a point. Point being that even though you are a super cool peace loving hip dude. In other settings that means nothing! Youre only as safe and soveriegn as your ability to defend yourself. We however live in a free society with laws to protect us from big meanies and that allows us to live the way we do. Not perfect, because man yeilds to his fallen state and darkened heart. Tree hugger is right about the way that we are raised, and the values instilled in us growing up. It is also clear that you didnt read my second post on the subject.

[feral]

You make a good point Peace Frog, and unfortunatly it is true, my point was really only meant to get people thinking about a differant point of view and was in no way directed towards you personally.
;)

I think Peace frog and treehugger's points should be put together. It seems likely to me that children are taught that people (in general) are evil, so when they are grown up, it is "Youre only as safe and soveriegn as your ability to defend yourself." I wonder if the world would be different if children were told otherwise.

[freakyfairy]

i think living like the ancients would be a lot better than the way we live now. More sense of community, relying on one another for survival. haha, and we would make music by shrieking and beating on rocks, yay.

sounds like my friends at school.... lol.....

[Pedata]

There was no toilet paper in the times of the ancients :sprachlos


Eeek.

[LIBRA]

ooh leaves arent fun, been there done that!!! Went camping and guess what the only thing I forgot was???? After hiking miles to get there, no going back!!

[treehugger]

My main squeeze tells me that in the middle east desert areas, they just use their fingers...

Not sure what to think of that or even if it's true...but if it is, and that's how the ancients lived....NO WAY, JOSE!

Kath

[Pedata]

I have a friend who was in Bagdad. Definite toilet paper shortage. No lights at night. No hot water.


There was also no soap in the olden days. Rich people would store thier clothes in herbs and flowers, so they'd smell better than the poor people.

Lol

Peace