Creationism and the public school system

[toman]

I'm interested in hearing what you guys think about this push to teach creationism in the public school systems. I assume it will go along the lines of religious (Christian) people being in favor, and other being opposed, but I'd like to know what people feel the possible benefits or drawbacks might be. To me, it seems simple that creationism is not something that should be taught in public schools, simply for the reason that religion and related concepts are something that can simply not be taught or discussed in an unbiased manner particularly when it's an authority figure presenting the idea to a subordinate. Now, I assume most of you also remember that I'm strongly against the idea of public education in general and feel that the system is a large contributor to the cancer that is eating our society from the inside out. Because of this, I tend to look at the subject of teaching creationism or any other religion in public schools from a distance; I feel that regardless of what is taught or not taught the puclic education systems in the country are corrupt and inneffective, and ultimately doomed. Unfortunately, I have no ideas or real suggestions pertaining to any avenue of education reform, but I do feel something like the proposed (and experimental) voucher programs are the best chance we have at this point, in that they give families the option of what their child is taught, while at the same time introducing capitolistic competition into the system in an effort to turn American's greed ulimately into an education system that will improve our society instead of scrambling it.

[oldkzildjians]

I believe that teaching anything that hasn't been proven should be noted as so. For instance, when learning about the theory of evolution it should be made clear that it's a theory and not factual. Creationism should at least be a subject of study, not taught as an absolute. We learn about Greek myths in school (I dressed up as Poseidon for class in highschool, complete with blue dreads) it doesn't hurt to learn about the religion that our forefathers brought to this country, as long as it's not pushed on the students to follow it. But equal study should be given to all the major religions. It's a good way to build tolerance and prevent xenophobia.

[PEACE FROG]

Creationism and the Bible should not be taught in public schools. It should be taught in the home. I don't want the state picking what form of religion or "who's spin" it to be regarded as the truth. Faith based issues are a family matter and personal to the idividual. Such matters should be introduced in a kynd,wise manner not as curriculum. I know that there are some God hating people here, ----Too harsh------, and they are gona say mean things..... but it's my opinion and you did ask. ;)

[toman]

I believe that teaching anything that hasn't been proven should be noted as so. For instance, when learning about the theory of evolution it should be made clear that it's a theory and not factual. Creationism should at least be a subject of study, not taught as an absolute. We learn about Greek myths in school (I dressed up as Poseidon for class in highschool, complete with blue dreads) it doesn't hurt to learn about the religion that our forefathers brought to this country, as long as it's not pushed on the students to follow it. But equal study should be given to all the major religions. It's a good way to build tolerance and prevent xenophobia.
I agree that it would be nice if all religions could be explained and discussed in public schools; I just don't see how it could ever be presented in an unbiased manner...

[oldkzildjians]

I think teaching about religion could be presented in an unbiased manner if it's presented as "this is this religion and this is what they believe" rather than "God created the heavens and the earth".

I sure wish my parents stuck with Montessori school which they had me enrolled in for a while. Then I (not knowing any better) wanted to attend public school so I could be with friends. I'm going to try and convince my kids that there are better oppurtunities than public school, but that's pretty far off considering I'm not even close to having kids (if I'm careful, that is)

now I'm rambling. I'll stop.

[ShaDoW]

I think that if religion is to be taught in school teach it from a sociological/anthropological perspective. Offer it as an elective so that the kids have a choice in the matter, say if they have an interest in theology. Certain colleges in my area offer a sociology of religion course, the high school i graduated from offered a world religions class. These are both elective type classes, granted one can go towards a degree program and the other is more for your learning pleasure, you are given a choice. Choices are what should be given in education it makes a difference in the impact it has on the child. As far as bias is concerned you just have to be able to provide a good instructor for a class, depending on a persons background they will either offer a biased point of view or an unbiased point of view, just depends on the person.
:hippie:

[PEACE FROG]

I agree with Toman, dicussing religion without bias is healthy. I still feel that the Gov. needs to but out.

[morningsunshine]

I'm interested in hearing what you guys think about this push to teach creationism in the public school systems. I assume it will go along the lines of religious (Christian) people being in favor, and other being opposed, but I'd like to know what people feel the possible benefits or drawbacks might be. To me, it seems simple that creationism is not something that should be taught in public schools, simply for the reason that religion and related concepts are something that can simply not be taught or discussed in an unbiased manner particularly when it's an authority figure presenting the idea to a subordinate. Now, I assume most of you also remember that I'm strongly against the idea of public education in general and feel that the system is a large contributor to the cancer that is eating our society from the inside out. Because of this, I tend to look at the subject of teaching creationism or any other religion in public schools from a distance; I feel that regardless of what is taught or not taught the puclic education systems in the country are corrupt and inneffective, and ultimately doomed. Unfortunately, I have no ideas or real suggestions pertaining to any avenue of education reform, but I do feel something like the proposed (and experimental) voucher programs are the best chance we have at this point, in that they give families the option of what their child is taught, while at the same time introducing capitolistic competition into the system in an effort to turn American's greed ulimately into an education system that will improve our society instead of scrambling it.
School + Mandated Religion = Rioting and/or parents pulling their kids out of school, which = reduced funding for schools. I know VBHS (my HS) greedily hoards every dollar it can find, so I'm pretty sure that won't be happening in my school.

If someone tried to teach me creationism in biology, I'd either be a smart ass (which is the most likely choice) or walk out (though that seems appealing too). I also know that my biology teacher would probably resign in protest. Mixing science and religion just doesn't work, I don't see how you could teach creationism in a science class because creationism isn't science. If you want to introduce religion into science (and therefore completely doom the class, as you can't have religion without neverending bias and that goes against the entire premise of scientific research) I say go to a Catholic school where you'll never hear the end of it, not bring it into a public school with all different types of belief systems and cultures.

[morningsunshine]

I believe that teaching anything that hasn't been proven should be noted as so. For instance, when learning about the theory of evolution it should be made clear that it's a theory and not factual. Creationism should at least be a subject of study, not taught as an absolute. And could you please give me a plane ticket to the ruined garden of Eden? I'd love to see the proof of that. There's even less proof that Creationism exists than evolution.


We learn about Greek myths in school (I dressed up as Poseidon for class in highschool, complete with blue dreads) it doesn't hurt to learn about the religion that our forefathers brought to this country, as long as it's not pushed on the students to follow it. But equal study should be given to all the major religions. It's a good way to build tolerance and prevent xenophobia.
World religions are pretty thoroughly covered in classes like World History and Humanities. While I agree that it's important to learn about different cultures and their beliefs, creationism should NOT be taught in a science class, as creationism is religion, not science, and should not be presented as such and shouldn't be presented as the scientific answer to the question "where did we come from". There is absolutely no scientific base in any claim of creationism.

[unclejoe]

"... render unto caesar the things that are caesar's and unto god the things that are god's..."

religion, of itself, is not a bad thing.
it's the organizations that make the problems.

if they wish to teach creationism, they should also include how the world came to be from the hindu, shinto, native american, polynesian islanders, australian aborigines, african, aleut, and other ethnic philosophies.

[CowboyHippy]

well, sitting down and looking at it
the question had more to do with creationism rather than religion being taught. In a public school system..i'd have no problems with theology as an elective, it's something you can get degrees for in college, why not give a high schooler a chance to see if it appeals to them? if something lake that were taught id also insist on an elective for evolution, thats my opinion on religion in public schools.

and back to the creationism issue
it's either one or the other

I haven't been presented with a plethora of theories about how we came to be, just creation or evolution. id rather see both thoughts given equal time on the soap-box, or none given to either, and the teaching of how we got here start off at caveman.

it shouldnt be too damn difficult to use the word theory a lot and touch on them as two seperate ideologies (non gender/diety specific terms will help.

i would assume this would be part of a larger subject, like a point a to point b journey with point a being here and now. there is a point where what we know is fact, and quite a portion of the timeline prior to that where we are left with speculations and theories that have basis in fact(cavemen and dinosaurs, pre historic type stuff.) and i would have no problem having those taught to my children regardless of what school of thought i take at home.

there is soo much other stuff to focus on, spend a couple days on the creation and evolution (equally), then the rest of the year getting from loincloths to kevlar.

[oldkzildjians]

And could you please give me a plane ticket to the ruined garden of Eden? I'd love to see the proof of that. There's even less proof that Creationism exists than evolution.


World religions are pretty thoroughly covered in classes like World History and Humanities. While I agree that it's important to learn about different cultures and their beliefs, creationism should NOT be taught in a science class, as creationism is religion, not science, and should not be presented as such and shouldn't be presented as the scientific answer to the question "where did we come from". There is absolutely no scientific base in any claim of creationism.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Creationism shouldn't be taught in a science class.

Interesting note, I heard somewhere that the garden of Eden was supposed to be located somewhere around the mouth of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Maybe that's why we're over there, heh heh.

[Dead Fan]

I think theology would be a great elective but my school doesntt have anything like it. As far as creationism in general terms goes how about we get that literacy rate up before we get to tellin kids what could be but my not.

[morningsunshine]

"... render unto caesar the things that are caesar's and unto god the things that are god's..."

religion, of itself, is not a bad thing.
it's the organizations that make the problems.

if they wish to teach creationism, they should also include how the world came to be from the hindu, shinto, native american, polynesian islanders, australian aborigines, african, aleut, and other ethnic philosophies.
Pfft, yeah right, those inferior fools?
It says "GOD" in the constitution, not Allah or Yahweh or whatever else, therefore Christianity is the only religion that should be practiced in the US.
Duh.

*rolls eyes*

[mamasharones]

I believe that teaching anything that hasn't been proven should be noted as so. For instance, when learning about the theory of evolution it should be made clear that it's a theory and not factual. Creationism should at least be a subject of study, not taught as an absolute. We learn about Greek myths in school (I dressed up as Poseidon for class in highschool, complete with blue dreads) it doesn't hurt to learn about the religion that our forefathers brought to this country, as long as it's not pushed on the students to follow it. But equal study should be given to all the major religions. It's a good way to build tolerance and prevent xenophobia.


Actually Evolution is basically factual. We see evolution occuring within HIV and it's mechanisms of reproduction. Even Pope John Paul II admitted that evolution should be accepted as fact due to it's overwhelming evidence. Although he did include that it didn't disprove the idea of a deity because we must accept that there are non overlapping magisteria. Meaning that religion is outside of the realm of scince there fore we cannot prove nor disprove God.

I wouldn't mind if religion was taught in school (all religion) but you know since most people are predominately christian they would emphasize christianity more than any other religion. I wish I would have learned more about other religions while I was in school. But I don't think it's the public's responisibility to teach things such as creationism. I definitely think that should be in the hands of parents.

[unclejoe]

"those fools" lived with the earth for many generations. they did not mangle it.

one country + one religion
= Taliban
= Nazis
= Inquisition

more death and destruction has been the result.

teaching creationism, regardless of whatever name it is given, is on par with legislating the value of PI (3.1416) to be 3. makes it easier to work with, but i wouldn't use it to engineer a hospital or house.

[ladywithafan]

Yeah, I feel that it is a tricky subject to teach children without stepping on anybody's toes. I do think that parents should teach their children the way that they believe the world was created. BUT, I also think that children should learn the other ways as well. I believe that we were evolved, but I do believe that there is a God. It says that the Earth was created in 7 days in the Bible, but does it have to really be 7 human days? It could be 7 million years and we were created from a big bang or an ameoba or a monkey and that was God's plan. People just take the Bible so literally. I think that the Bible is good for giving children good morals and telling hopeful stories (besides the bad stories in it of pillaging, murder, cheating, and deceit/betrayal). I am sorry if I offend anyone with this post. I was raised by a strict Baptist family, and when I went out in the real world I realized that there was way more to the picture than God and the Bible. So this is my take on what I believe in

[toman]

The Nazi agenda was not driven by religion, just for the record. Religion was used as a reference and sometimes in propaganda, but it was not a major influence on the functioning or structure of the party.

[ladywithafan]

Toman-

You are replying to the posts the same time I am :) How weird is that?

[toman]

Yeah, I feel that it is a tricky subject to teach children without stepping on anybody's toes. I do think that parents should teach their children the way that they believe the world was created. BUT, I also think that children should learn the other ways as well. I believe that we were evolved, but I do believe that there is a God. It says that the Earth was created in 7 days in the Bible, but does it have to really be 7 human days? It could be 7 million years and we were created from a big bang or an ameoba or a monkey and that was God's plan. People just take the Bible so literally. I think that the Bible is good for giving children good morals and telling hopeful stories (besides the bad stories in it of pillaging, murder, cheating, and deceit/betrayal). I am sorry if I offend anyone with this post. I was raised by a strict Baptist family, and when I went out in the real world I realized that there was way more to the picture than God and the Bible. So this is my take on what I believe in
I like this post. The way I look at it, not being religious, is that the bible is a fine piece of fiction, from which can be drawn many useful concepts as well as many ugly ones. Used in an objective manner, it's probably a great educational tool just as many other pieces of literature are.

[morningsunshine]

"those fools" lived with the earth for many generations. they did not mangle it.

one country + one religion
= Taliban
= Nazis
= Inquisition

more death and destruction has been the result.

teaching creationism, regardless of whatever name it is given, is on par with legislating the value of PI (3.1416) to be 3. makes it easier to work with, but i wouldn't use it to engineer a hospital or house.
Lol I was being sarcastic, I think I'd have intensely negative feelings for anyone that actually thought that way.

[morningsunshine]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Creationism shouldn't be taught in a science class.

Interesting note, I heard somewhere that the garden of Eden was supposed to be located somewhere around the mouth of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Maybe that's why we're over there, heh heh.
Maybe because that's where the basis of organized civilization began, I dunno... I've also heard it's somewhere in Africa.

[oldkzildjians]

Actually Evolution is basically factual. We see evolution occuring within HIV and it's mechanisms of reproduction. Even Pope John Paul II admitted that evolution should be accepted as fact due to it's overwhelming evidence. .

But how can something be "basically" factual? Although it may seem more likely to be a fact, until it's proven, it is not. Evidence does suggest that evolution is likely, but is it a fact? Last time I checked, it was still a theory. Does anyone know if it's actually been proven yet?

[toman]

How can anyone really "prove" that evolution is fact? Christians will still tell you dinosaurs never existed, and that man never set foot on the moon. All fact is relevant; the actualy concept of fact is flawed because in the end all things are perceptual and because of that there can be no true fact.

[CowboyHippy]

How can anyone really "prove" that evolution is fact? Christians will still tell you dinosaurs never existed, and that man never set foot on the moon. All fact is relevant; the actualy concept of fact is flawed because in the end all things are perceptual and because of that there can be no true fact.


i've never had a christian tell me that dinosaurs never existed, matter of fact they taught me all about dinosaurs, i went to a private church run school and half my classes were taught by nuns. the 6000 year old earth theory also accounts for dinosaurs.


i'd still contend god has a sense of humor and put the bones there to see what we would com up eith

and i am doubting the moon landing thing, i have no doubts that it can be done, but back in the day they faked it just so we could beat the russians

[toman]

When I was a kid I lived across the street from some people who were extreme Christians; they and the people they associated with always made a point of spouting off about how dinosaurs didn't exist, how it's all some sort of sceme to teach kids to hate God, etc...

[morningsunshine]

i'd still contend god has a sense of humor and put the bones there to see what we would com up eith
Yeah... that makes sense... bones that never belonged to anything.

[oldkzildjians]

How can anyone really "prove" that evolution is fact? Christians will still tell you dinosaurs never existed, and that man never set foot on the moon. All fact is relevant; the actualy concept of fact is flawed because in the end all things are perceptual and because of that there can be no true fact.

Wow, that's an extreme view about dinosaurs. I've actually heard Christians explain the millions of years of different periods of geologic time with "a day to God is thousands of years" (in reference to the whole 7 days scenario). And I could be mistaken but doesn't the Bible mention "giant beasts that walked the earth" or something of that nature? We were discussing Creationism in my philosophy class today and someone mentioned "the watch notion" by some guy (anyone heard of this and know the name?) who compares the intricate components of the world (perfect balance) with that of a watch or clock. Basically meaning that a complex thing such as a clock cannot be a natural accident and therefore the world had to have a creator. Seems like a weak and broad comparison to me, but interesting nonetheless. This class is unbiased and focuses on moral issues.

I know I'm getting slightly off the subject but in my African history class we were studying Ramses the Great and someone mentioned that they'd heard that the dispersion of the waters by Moses (if it happened) could be explained by a tsunami. When I stopped and thought about it though, it seems unlikely that a tsunami could travel that far up into the left thin part of the Red Sea, but I'm not a oceanographer so I have no idea.

Sounds like I go to a Christian school, doesn't it? UNT is actually pretty liberal but to me these are interesting things that have been discussed recently that relate to Creationism in a way.

[CowboyHippy]

Yeah... that makes sense... bones that never belonged to anything.

are other peoples posts getting you cranky? if you found the humor at least throw a smiley in or something.

doesn't make much sense to climb a mountain, get to the top and come back down the way you came, why do people strap on parachutes and jump out of airplanes? have you ever done anything that doesn't make sense to someone else, but you enjoy doing it for the sake of doing it?

it doesn't have to make sense, the humor comes from people trying to explain it, like the platypus and who really really built the pyramids. if we evolved bigfoot is laughing at the christians, and if we were created god is up there petting a beagle and laughing at darwin. that doesn't make sense either but someone somewhere will get it
oh well
I think it is funny

next time your significant othere or whatever term ya'll use has a plate full of food ready to eat dinner, put the plate on the stack o plates in the cupboard, or in the oven, or the fridge, and act like you don't know a thing. then watch them looking for it, help them if you must...doesnt make sense, and it has even less to do with creationism in public schools, but every now and then I find it terribly funny.

[Herbmama]

eh...this is one of the reasons I homeschool :o
I'm willing and able to teach my son about creation myths from around the world..as well as evolution, and then let him think about it.

Public schools for the most part will do everything in their power to keep students from thinking.

[morningsunshine]

are other peoples posts getting you cranky? if you found the humor at least throw a smiley in or something.

doesn't make much sense to climb a mountain, get to the top and come back down the way you came, why do people strap on parachutes and jump out of airplanes? have you ever done anything that doesn't make sense to someone else, but you enjoy doing it for the sake of doing it?

it doesn't have to make sense, the humor comes from people trying to explain it, like the platypus and who really really built the pyramids. if we evolved bigfoot is laughing at the christians, and if we were created god is up there petting a beagle and laughing at darwin. that doesn't make sense either but someone somewhere will get it
oh well
I think it is funny

next time your significant othere or whatever term ya'll use has a plate full of food ready to eat dinner, put the plate on the stack o plates in the cupboard, or in the oven, or the fridge, and act like you don't know a thing. then watch them looking for it, help them if you must...doesnt make sense, and it has even less to do with creationism in public schools, but every now and then I find it terribly funny.
I'm just saying that everything in nature seems to be functional in some way, everything has a purpose. Bones that never belonged to anything doesn't seem to make sense, I don't understand how anyone could actually think this... Even the platypus' weird appearance is perfectly suited for their way of life. Scientists have actually traced our existance back far enough to know we probably came from a type of prehistoric, herbivorous worm with a long, unpronounce-able name, that, for some reason, didn't die out when it should have because it had no defense mechanisms. (Funny because we don't have any today either. Natural, built in ones at least, like super long claws or incredible speed. If it wasn't for our intellect that also happens to be dooming our planet and overpopulating the world then we'd be done for.)

As for the "hide the food" joke...
meh. I'd be really pissed if someone did that to me... but then maybe that's just because I wouldn't want to wait to eat my food... *such a glutton*

[StellaBlue]

Public schools for the most part will do everything in their power to keep students from thinking.

As a teacher in a public school, I have to disagree with this statement. I certainly encourage my students to think for themselves.

You must have had a negative experience with public schools. I'm sorry if that's the case, but please don't lump all schools together and say they keep kids from thinking. I'm doing the best that I can to make sure my kids in my class do think.

[Herbmama]

As a teacher in a public school, I have to disagree with this statement. I certainly encourage my students to think for themselves.

You must have had a negative experience with public schools. I'm sorry if that's the case, but please don't lump all schools together and say they keep kids from thinking. I'm doing the best that I can to make sure my kids in my class do think.

You as an individual might be challenging you students to think for themselves, but the system as a whole does not.

The problem isn't the schools as much as our culture as a whole.

[Heresy]

As a teacher in a public school, I have to disagree with this statement. I certainly encourage my students to think for themselves.

You must have had a negative experience with public schools. I'm sorry if that's the case, but please don't lump all schools together and say they keep kids from thinking. I'm doing the best that I can to make sure my kids in my class do think.


Unfortunately I'm afraid she is becoming more and more correct.
The job of a publich school teacher now a days is largely to prepare them for some standardized test they need to take and pass to move on. Curriculum in the public school system is dying out. It is now the administrators that assemble curriculum, and not the educators. This will lead to a weaker and weaker public school system.

Already, the majority of students that come out the the public schools are not prepared for college, this will begin the mess with the quality of college education.

Something serious needs to be done. Either all education has to be privatized, or the government needs to take education out the the hands of the administrators and give it back to the educators.

I came from the public school system where I had a great experience. But I graduated in 95, and a lot of these new "edicts" have been passed since then

[morningsunshine]

Unfortunately I'm afraid she is becoming more and more correct.
The job of a publich school teacher now a days is largely to prepare them for some standardized test they need to take and pass to move on. Curriculum in the public school system is dying out. It is now the administrators that assemble curriculum, and not the educators. This will lead to a weaker and weaker public school system.

Already, the majority of students that come out the the public schools are not prepared for college, this will begin the mess with the quality of college education.

Something serious needs to be done. Either all education has to be privatized, or the government needs to take education out the the hands of the administrators and give it back to the educators.

I came from the public school system where I had a great experience. But I graduated in 95, and a lot of these new "edicts" have been passed since then

As a student in Florida State, let me agree with you in every way possible.

There is a standardized test that every student in FL needs to pass in grades 3, 8, and 10. (I think 8 but I'm not sure). EVERYTHING in ALL classes is centered around this test and what will be on it. If it's not on the test, teachers aren't allowed to teach it. Teachers have to submit a copy of their lesson plans for the entire year for approval by the School Board to make sure it has enough FCAT-relevant material. (This applies mostly in math, english, and science, but the FCAT, or Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test, governs such classes as foreign language and history as well, even though you are only tested in english and math.) I am a senior, in Grade 12, and we're still learning FCAT material, 2 years after I've already taken the test. Forget the SAT/ACT, we're still on 10th grade FCAT level material. Teachers are required to give FCAT practice tests and follow approved curriculum and focus mainly on the "tricks" and material needed to pass the test. For someone like me, who likes to learn, this is terrible because all we do is answer multiple choice questions all day long. And since a school's collective FCAT scores govern how much gvmt funding a school receives, that's all the schools care about. I took my FCATs in 10th grade and aced them with 2 9's (the highest score). In 11th grade, they asked me to take them AGAIN to bring up the school's rating. That's right... take an entire day out of school to take a test that I aced last year just so the school could be funded more money. The teachers in Florida aren't allowed to teach beyond the FCAT test and so the students suffer because they receive the same teaching year, after year, after year, even after the students have passed the test.
I'm not prepared to take the SAT, nor the ACT, because we don't even have SAT prep classes to take. FCAT prep classes are manditory for all students who have not passed the 10th grade FCAT (and even the practice FCAT test that doesn't count that they give us in 9th grade, the FKitty), but yet there are no SAT classes AT ALL because the SAT doesn't govern how much funding a school receives. At least in Florida, schools could care less about the actual learning of the students and instead focus on how much money they can get from the state because of them. And this is why Florida ranks 48th in the nation for education.

[toman]

^^^ That is messed up. I knew the education system was getting out of hand when I graduated, but it wasn't even close to that. I wonder how far all of this is going to have to o before it reaches a breaking point...

[CowboyHippy]

the more i think about it
I think neither one should be taught unless as an elective in public schools
in private schools you can pay to send your kid somewhere that teaches your beliefs

[Heresy]

^^^ That is messed up. I knew the education system was getting out of hand when I graduated, but it wasn't even close to that. I wonder how far all of this is going to have to o before it reaches a breaking point...


Its been going and going since the 1960's when sputnick was sent up. That's what started the current movement. This educational philosophy is based on excellence in math and science with a secondary emphasis on english. The other stuff is just gravy, some districts can afford it, some cannot.

This philosophy can continue indefinitely, becuase the man fears change. Change means they may lose power. Built into our education system in terms of funding, quality of schools, quality of teachers, is a racism so ingrained that most people involved in the system don't really realize it.

The people who run education on the federal level are very smart when it comes to controlling people, unfortunately, that intelligence doesn't parlay well into the actual education of people.

[morningsunshine]

^^^ That is messed up. I knew the education system was getting out of hand when I graduated, but it wasn't even close to that. I wonder how far all of this is going to have to o before it reaches a breaking point...
Yeah, trying learning the same crap for three years in a row. *dies*
I was actually going to school in North Carolina at a magnet school, doing sixth grade pre-algebra in third grade. I came to Florida in fifth grade, when I already was beginning Algebra I at my old school, and when I came here we were still learning about.... multiplication? They actually wanted to skip me ahead a grade and put me in gifted, but my mom said no. The funny thing was was that I'm not "smarter" than other people, I was right on track at my school in NC. It's just that here in Florida, since everything is centered around the FCAT, they can't move ahead even if they'd like to. I lost three years of education by moving here.

Now I feel like an idiot. :(

[tlranger]

:cheers: I think there may be hope for the world.

Back in 1970 worked with an IBM 360 at KSU, had to get boxes of punch cards ready just to find the answer to the simplist question. Sitting here tonight, reading the list of opinions, from a very diverse group, got to heard what everyone said. Think there may be something to this internet thing.

Plus, all this opinion, this county is certainly fertile ground for debate. Taught school for ten yrs, never had a parent come in to talk about what I was teaching. But now I'll see people going to school board meetings, talking to their administators, visiting with their child's teacher, talking to their elected officals, things are really going to chage fast. Education will be able to survive and improve.

If Organized Religion really does want involved in government, there is certainly a good deal of tax sheltered money and property that could taxed, like everything else, to help the county.

Peace- T L Ranger

[trey]

undefinedok ouch. first off lets get back to the subject of whether ID (intelligent design) or darwinsism should be taught in school. both are theory. sure, sure, the public school system is not what everyone would wish for. granted schools are being un-funded as we speak. no one is to blame but ourseleves. schools are ran like a business. nothing more nothing less. personally i would have my child home taught or waldorf. just an opinion. back to the point: ID, which says that something larger had a hand in evolution, basiclly. or darwinism. is it possible that such an old theory such as darwinism has actually outdated itself. or that darwin just didn't get it all. hmmmm. one human comes up with an amazing theory to describe evolution, and he doesn't catch it all. ok forgiveable. is this church and state? likely. but no more likely than darwin. really. darwin and evolution, church and state. the question posed here is whether church and state is in violation, but no one questions whether darwinsim is the answer. why? i can't say. darwin became a christian. which there is nothing wrong with. if we are going to explore theories, all theories of the world should be included. not myths, no legends, but theories, and more or less theologies. why not. it would teach our youth, that there are other people on the planet, and what they think and what they believe in. it would create a greater tolerance for others, and other thoughts, and beliefs. really if we can't respectfully do this, then how do we do it.

[tlranger]

I'm reporting that most people polled in Kansas(state wide poll) placed spiritualty and science on two different fields, most wished they could co-exist. But a few where quite vocal supporting ID- all were ministers.
The headline making in Ks. seems to come from two right wing consevative christains, using their state held positions(state school board) to get press time.

Peace T L Ranger

[Herbmama]

I'm reporting that most people polled in Kansas(state wide poll) placed spiritualty and science on two different fields, most wished they could co-exist. But a few where quite vocal supporting ID- all were ministers.
The headline making in Ks. seems to come from two right wing consevative christains, using their state held positions(state school board) to get press time.

Peace T L Ranger

I think we can all thank The Flying Spagetti Monster for this...true his noodley appendages reach far and wide.

http://www.venganza.org/

[treehugger]

I think we can all thank The Flying Spagetti Monster for this...true his noodley appendages reach far and wide.

http://www.venganza.org/

OMFG...that site is sooo hilarious! I'm seriously thinking of getting a shirt! Thanx for the smile.

Kath

[okiemama]

just for giggles i thought i'd throw my measly opinion on this in too.

i detest public school, especially the system where i live now. unfortunately my son DOES currently attend there (though not past this year if i can help it, i've almost got the hubby convinced i can homeschool him and our other two little ones with no problem). the state of this country's education is frightening. here where i live, the teachers and students lose the first 9 wks of school dealing with the "No Child Left Alone" crap that ol' georgie boy and company forced on us all. not to mention, though we are one of the worst school systems in our state, we also have the highest required score in the state for the gifted and talented program. my son missed by two points. in any other district he'd be in the program, but here there is no program because they keep that qualifying score so high that few (if any) kids qualify, that way their money isn't "wasted" on the smart kids. grrrrr!!! i hate this town! all that being said, here's my wandering thoughts on this subject.

my biology teacher handled this tricky area well i think, she put forth darwin's original theory of evolution (i.e. animals adapting to their surroundings) as well as what is currently accepted as the theory of evolution (i.e. that every living thing is a progressive adaptation of a simpler, smaller creature) as well as adding a single statement that was pretty much as follows: "There are those who believe that a higher power created all of this and set it into motion." she left it there and i don't think anyone had an issue with how she handled it. i personally thought she covered her bases and anyone who wanted more info either way, had plenty of books in the library, etc. to go study to their hearts content.

now, to add a few more random thoughts:

the garden of Eden's rivers according to the Bible (for any who are interested)-- Genesis 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it was divided and became four heads. 11 The name of the first was Pishon;13 And the name of the second river is Gihon. 14 And the name of the third river is Tigris; it is the one going east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates. and as we have no idea where Gihon and Pishon are, there is no way of proving where Eden was.

not all Christians have such antiquated notions as to think dinosuars didn't exist, or that we didn't go to the moon. Some of us (yes, I am one, don't shoot) have a brain in our heads. i have never seen a problem for myself between my belief in God and science. who am i to say how God chose to create this place? and though i had never heard of the "watch" thing, it kind of describes how i feel when i look at science. i see the beauty and complexity and intricate nature of it all, how well it ties together and is so amazingly inter-realated, and i see the hand of a higher power. (oddly, i was an atheist in high school, and science is actually what forced me to look for something deeper. it was all too perfect for random chance.) besides, darwin was a religious man, he and God are probably up there together having a high time and shaking their heads at us all for arguing so vehmently over such a little issue.

that said, when i do get to homeschool my munchkins, i will teach as many forms of how people think the world got started as i can find, it's essential for well rounded education. balance in all things, you know. i have no hope for regaining ground in the public school system, and quite frankly, most colleges aren't any better. the one i (stupidly) chose was nothing more than 4 more years of high school nonsense. it was a waste of money and time. the only good thing i gained from it was my wonderful husband. :D in some ways, i mourn the loss of the appreticeship system that was once the norm.

and just for the record, though i doubt it matters, and has nothing to do with this thread, i am one of those "weird Christians" that firmly believes that we were given "every green and seed bearing herb" for our consumption. and i promise not to bring up Christianity anywhere it isn't brought up by someone else first, and i NEVER push my beliefs on anyone else. i am a respecter of people's right to choose for themselves. i only say all this because so many times people hear that i am a Christian and immediately assume i'm part of the far right bushite crowd, when nothing could be further from the truth. i've been kicked out of so many churches i can't name them all, as i am in opposition to the organized church in the form it has today. it resembles nothing like what was intended, but it does strongly resemble the pharisees (and what they had done to the religion) that Christ was so staunchly against. (of course, i no longer bother to go to an organized church at all, we have a little house church these days. i stopped trying to even reason with those people, as they are willfully blind to anything that resembles rational thought.) and i have to agree with tlranger on the taxation thing. i see no reason for churches/mosques/temples, etc. to be tax free. it goes back to that "render unto ceasar" thing. seperation of church and state works both ways, i don't want the gov't dictating what is said in my church anymore than i want my church to dictate what is going on in my gov't. and i also have to say what rove and his buddies are doing with the religious right is nothing more than a manipulation of a voting block. it sickens me and i scream from the rafters about it anywhere the subject comes up.

anyway, for what it is worth, there's my ramblings about this.

[okiemama]

ROFLMAO!! i went to look at the flying spaghetti monster site....and haven't stopped laughing since i did! it's great! i love the pirate fish...i want one.

[tlranger]

Herbmama - awsome site -Thanks

Peace T L Ranger

[unclejoe]

most gracious herbacious mater,

in re The Flying Spagetti Monster:

giggle :) chortle :D guffaw.

:cheers:

ever your avuncular,
josef

[morningsunshine]

that said, when i do get to homeschool my munchkins, i will teach as many forms of how people think the world got started as i can find, it's essential for well rounded education. balance in all things, you know.

Yes, I agree that creation myths and legends should be taught... in a humanities class, where things like that belong. People are pushing for ID to be taught in a Biology class when ID is not a scientific theory no matter how they phrase it, whether they use "Designer" instead of "God" or not. Biology should stick with science and not meddle with religion because religion cannot be experimented with or tested; religion cannot be proven or disproven, and while neither can the theory of evolution, at least evolution has been observed over the years and in, for example, bacteria that has adapted to resist antibiotics. If someone tried to teach me ID in my biology class I think I'd walk out because I am not a religious person and while I find religion interesting, I don't want that crap pushed on me, sorry. I find it appalling that they are trying to worm religion into our science classrooms.

[okiemama]

morningsunshine, i'm sorry i offended you so deeply. i wasn't saying it should be taught in science classes. i do have a problem with people pushing religion in public school, or any kind of spirituality. for instance, our schools have "counseling" once a week, in which (for awhile) they had been pushing that the children should "find their own spirit guide". this did not fly well with any of us, no matter how open-minded we were. i still don't allow my child to participate, even though they've dropped the spirit guide issue. i just don't trust them. personal beliefs are to be taught at home, period, no matter what spiritual discipline you keep. and humanities classes never represent anyone's faith/beliefs very well, and i think that religion studies really have no place in public schools at anything but a college level, where the person can choose for themselves if they even want to study it. most of what i was taught in public school concerning religions was spotty at best, even in college, and certainly not good representations of any of them. there is no way to give a full picture of any belief in the short amount of time you have to work with.

i understand your frustration with the thought of religion being pushed in schools, but i really think the problem in our schools runs even deeper than that. the problem i see is that there are lots of people pushing their own agendas in the public schools, at the expense of the children's education. take, for instance, the sign outside the elementary school here. it has a quote on it (and i know this will not be quite word for word, but it's close): "School is not merely the education of a child, it is their whole life." sounds all sweet and involved and concerned for your child's well-being...at first. but the more it rattles around in the brain you realize...wait a minute! school is supposed to be nothing but education. the rest of my child's life is NOT their business. i certainly don't like the things coming home out of our schools right now. another example: in their anti-drug week, they also talk about tobacco use prevention. not a bad thing, on the surface...till my child came home and told me they told him that his father and i were "a drug addicts and a bad people" for smoking cigarettes. you can bet i was up there screaming about 10 min later. thankfully, my son is smart enough to come home and discuss these things with me first, before taking them to heart. but then again, i've taught him to question authority. yes, you read that right, i darn sure did teach him to question authority, that the "authority" is not always right. and i've been glad a hundred times over that i did. i could go on and on with similar examples, but you get the point.

schools are far more concerned these days with children's socialization than it is their education, which is a crock. there is only about 2-3 hrs that they actually do any school work. the rest of the time is taken up with activities and nonsense. they throw music and library and p.e. in for a bit each week to make it seem like the education they are providing is well-rounded and valuable. but the sheer amount of busy work that i have seen in the last 3 yrs since my son started school is frightening. it's like the woman ("pillar of the community", no less) who told me it was my own fault i was frustrated with the school (this was when he started kindergarten), that i shouldn't have taught him to read myself before the school taught them all together. utter bs. he was the ONLY child in kindergarten whose parents had taught them to read. staggers the mind, doesn't it? the saddest part of it all is parents who don't have either the time or inclination to be involved enough with their children to even know these things are happening. the apathy i have found is amazing, and it isn't just OK. my aunt teaches in a public school in CO, and she says it's just as bad there. that the quality of both the teachers and the parental involvement are terribly lacking compared to what it was 25 yrs ago when she first started teaching. i'd bet that is the case most everywhere these days. throw in the amount of time lost to standardized testing and no child left behind and you've got a serious problem.

but thanks, btw, y'all pretty much cemented my decision to pull my child at mid-year and homeschool him. until i got into this conversation, i'd been going to let him finish out this year, but the more i think about and talk about these things, the angrier i get with the school. and i simply can't stand the things that are going on. between the gov'ts interference, and busybodies pushing their own agendas (yes, i include religion, ALL religion), and teachers and other parents that say i am making too much out of nothing, while my child languishes away, spending all of his day surrounded by this crap, and learns nothing. they haven't taught a single thing yet this year that is anything new. not a single thing. the excuse is that they are reinforcing what was taught last year, and that they will build on it later. but here we are into the second 9 wks, and still nothing. and yes, i realize that this is a horrible school system here, one of the worst in the state, but for now i can do nothing about where i live, and private school is not an option financially. thus, homeschool is my option. it is a protected right here, and i should take advantage of it while i still legally can. i appreciate it being brought to the forefront of my mind to roll around and to realize that the longer i wait, the worse it is going to get and the angrier i will be.

[unclejoe]

okie,

home schooling has been going on for years. parents have done so for millennia.
current school systems (read assembly line) are, historically,
recent inventions that went awry in the sixties and seventies.
politics and it's fellow travelers have mucked it.

if you need ANY assistance or support for and in your most marvelous endeavor,
feel free to ask the wonderful 'hippies' here.
we've an accumulation of knowledge, experience and understanding
that most universities would envy.

your humble savant,

unclejoe

[tlranger]

okie, as uncle says, so do I!!!

The teachers in today's schools are bound by the muckiedness of it all. Even the concept of the school year, and the classroom, are more suited to conditioning and controlling than learning. Its more about the teachers than the students.
I hope you can focus on the act of learning. Just last week had occasion to take #3da. to school. It's early, gorgeous full moon, and a lunar eclipse going on. Take the time to talk about it. She knows the facts, but when they begin to understand, you can see it in their eyes,
I think, its not- what you know but what you want to know. But then I know very little about the 'grand' scheme of things.

Peace T L Ranger

[mamasharones]

But how can something be "basically" factual? Although it may seem more likely to be a fact, until it's proven, it is not. Evidence does suggest that evolution is likely, but is it a fact? Last time I checked, it was still a theory. Does anyone know if it's actually been proven yet?



Yes things can be basically factual..... we accept them as truth. I have plenty of info from my evolution class of EVIDENCE of evolution happening right before our eyes. If you would like to view it I would be more than happy to show you. One example of evolution that has been observed hundreds of times is in HIV and the drug called AZT. google it

Lots of things are theories, because theories don't move beyond that point. Think about the things that are scientific law. Like the law of thermodynamics. prove it? Can you really prove it? Sure you can make experiments that show it functioning (which is done with evolution thru genetics) but you can't really be like here's the proof. You can only show examples. Like the theory of relativity from Einstein.... it's a theory yet there are many things that have been invented that came from that theory. Some things you just can't prove without a doubt but you can prove within a resonable doubt.

You can't deny that evolution exists unless you're going to believe in creationism. but there's no evidence that god exists whatsoever. And anyone that's familiar with science knows of of occums razor which states that all things being equal the simplest explanation is the best. Now for anyone who's seen the movie contact (which this quote comes from) What's the best explanation... that a god that we have NO evidence for single handedly created the universe and never left any evidence of his existance, simply science has yet to uncover that he never existed at all.

[morningsunshine]

her whole post
You didn't offend me, I was just getting pissed off at the school, sorry if it came off that way. As I kept writing and writing I just got more and more angry!

I think you are absolutely right and I am horrified that your teachers didn't do anything to work your child's mind. Public schools should focus soley on education... after all, they're just a SCHOOL. The only thing I can say is that I went to a gifted school for four years in elementary school and I absolutely loved it, I flourished there. If you can find a school for gifted children or a more "academy" type style of school where the focus is soley on learning, I think that would be a good bet. All I can say is that I was doing algebra in fourth grade and when I came to FL in fifth they were still learning multiplication. If I still lived in NC and went to the gifted HS there, I would be doing in high school what people will be doing in their first and second years of college down here in FL. Also, my school in NC was all about hands on and learning through the comprehension of principles instead of "this is how you do it, but don't ask questions, just do it." I now find that I can't really learn something that well unless I comprehend the principle behind it. (Yes, we're graphing lines, but why? What does graphing lines do? What do you use it for? How does a system of equations make this particular line? Most of my teachers are taken aback when I ask questions like that, but they were encouraged at my elementary school!)

I wish I could be the head of the school board or something, I have so many changes I would like to make. If the focus could be soley on education I think that the state of this nation would be much better. With all the money that is spent on all this extra crap, it's a wonder we have any money left over for books at all. Oh wait... we don't... I'm still using a history book from 1960.

Also, congrats on telling your child to question authority. It seems that they hardly are right these days, eh?

[okiemama]

>>>>>You didn't offend me, I was just getting pissed off at the school, sorry if it came off that way. As I kept writing and writing I just got more and more angry!

sorry hon, i didn't mean to jump to conclusions. i get pretty hot about school issues too, as you can see. i'm used to offending people too, but i shouldn't have assumed. and yeah, FL schools suck. i lived there for awhile a few yrs ago (in Jax) and thankfully my kids were way too little for school, but i had friends who were dealing with the schools there and i was amazed at the things they told me.



unclejoe, tl- thanks for the support!! i have wanted to do this from the beginning, as i had the priveledge of being homeschooled for one year, and it was the best learning experience i have ever had. i do homeschool already in the summer, that's why my boy-o stays so far ahead. and interesting that you should bring up space, tl, we have a fairly nice telescope my parents bought for my son last x-mas, and i have gotten him up at all hours to go look at mars, and meteor showers and all sorts of things. he has inherited his dad's love of space. we couldn't see the lunar eclipse though, wrong location for us. :( but i have tons and tons of ideas, and the homeschool association here is great! i already have a few friends that homeschool (which has helped the hubby get over his reservations about it) and so my son has friends that are homeschooled too, it will help the transition. in truth, i can hardly wait to get started. it was almost impossible to send him to school this morning!! i may not be able to wait till the mid-year break...hee hee hee.

[tlranger]

Maybe the Flying Spagetti Mon. will get some play now!!

Kansas School Board Voted; 6-4 split into two camps; SBPrez.Abrems says God won because he(God) wanted more diversity in schools(told him so..) :kngt: Wish I could whack him a good one, and Kansas too!!

Asked school principal last night, he said that nothing would change in our classrooms. (then why do we bother?) maybe that kind of thinking is part of the problem here.

Peace T L Ranger