Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

[Unkle_John]

So this athiest guy in California wants the pledge banned in school because it violates the seperation of church and state. What do you guys think?

My 2 cents:
"under god" was placed in the pledge during the cold war to make us superior to the "commies", by saying we place god in our lives.
Now, honestly we are a country that was founded by christians, but they wanted the freedom to live where we can choose what religion to follow even thier children. Be it christian, jewish, or pagan. Not baptist, methodist, and catholic. Honestly, it's not like christianity has been practiced the longest. But that is a different conversation.
So how bad is it to believe the "under god" part can represent what god(s) you choose to revere or not even say "under god" when you recite the pledge?
I understand he wants it removed and I understand why he believes so. Then why is it so hard for people to accept the fact that we as members of this country choose our religions (in this guy's case.. none). And times are ah-changin'.

So what do you all think about the ruling?

[toman]

When I was in school, I did not recite the plege for two reasons; the first being that I don't believe in a god, and the second being that I was always taught that I need not pledge my allegiance to any authority unless I made the decision to do so as an adult.

[toman]

I was just watching Leno, and when he mentioned this the crowd booed. Does the average American really think forcing children to pledge allegiance to a god they may or may not believe in is right? If so, that's amazing to me because as I understand it that's the exact opposite of everything America is supposed to stand for.

[kermit]

So this athiest guy in California wants the pledge banned in school because it violates the seperation of church and state. What do you guys think?

My 2 cents:
"under god" was placed in the pledge during the cold war to make us superior to the "commies", by saying we place god in our lives.
Now, honestly we are a country that was founded by christians, but they wanted the freedom to live where we can choose what religion to follow even thier children. Be it christian, jewish, or pagan. Not baptist, methodist, and catholic. Honestly, it's not like christianity has been practiced the longest. But that is a different conversation.
So how bad is it to believe the "under god" part can represent what god(s) you choose to revere or not even say "under god" when you recite the pledge?
I understand he wants it removed and I understand why he believes so. Then why is it so hard for people to accept the fact that we as members of this country choose our religions (in this guy's case.. none). And times are ah-changin'.

So what do you all think about the ruling?


There is no seperation!

the churches will Kill this world before us rednecks do... Us damned rednecks who let everything overgrow :-D

[toman]

There is no seperation!

the churches will Kill this world before us rednecks do... Us damned rednecks who let everything overgrow :-D
Take your meds, ass...

[LIBRA]

I am so sick of everything being a big freakin deal, Its the pledge if kids dont want to say it, dont. If they do then say it loud and proud. Everything has to be so over analized, and picked apart, people just need something to go against. Oh it says God in it, thats just not right, shut up and dont say it! And they dont "make you" say the pledge, at least they never did in my school.
It just bugs me, that there are so many things wrong in this world so much suffering and it could be changed but so many people focus there attention on pointless stuff like this, when they could use the energy and media coverage on things that could make this world a better place for all.

[toman]

:shrugs: I though we Americans were all about creating the best place on earth to live, a place where people of all beliefs and cultures could get along and feel safe and comfortable. Why should one child have to sit out of a school sanctioned activity becaue of his religion when we specifically separate church and state? What advantage is there in allowing worship into our children's schools, other than to foster the religioun-fueled hate that festers in the rest of our society allready? Children don't need to be segregated because of a deity that may or may not exist; they have the entire rest of their lives for that. School is for learning, not god...

[morningsunshine]

Most kids I know don't even know what the pledge means. How many second graders that you know could tell you what things like "allegiance" and "republic"? I personally don't say it because I don't pledge my allegiance to the flag, blah, blah; I think it's a giant wad of long-standing propaganda used, among other things, to turn kids into the culturally ignorant, and generally intolerant teenagers that they are today. The kids at the highschool that say it say it in a complete monotone from rote memory and don't even take in a word they're saying anymore. I think that it doesn't really mean anything anymore to that many people because they dont' even stop to think about what they're pledging to and if they agree to it.
As for the God issue, I don't think it really needs to be taken out, if you want to say the pledge, and believe in what you're saying, then either just don't say "god" or substitute whatever name you call your paticular diety. I honestly don't think it's that big of a deal seeing as it's not even mandatory anyway. If you happened to get in trouble because you didn't say it, or didn't say "god", then that's an entirely different story. But you have the option of using whatever word you want in the pledge and, regardless of what word you use, it has the same general meaning.

[Unkle_John]

Good arguments people!

BTW I remember everyone including teachers saying grace out loud before lunch when I was in public school.

[Dead Fan]

My opinion is much like libras i think if you want to do it do and dont feel bad about it and if you dont want to do it then dont just dont feel like your wrong either and if you want to pledge allegience to your country and not good then dont say god. Who cares? Oh and as far as teachers sayiong grace and other such things before an end of course test my freshman year my english teacher was annointing people or something like that. It was like whoa wierd. With the oil and the cross on the head and such just wow christian.

[toman]

But the point is why should one child have to actively not take part in something that obviously doesn't belong in public schools? If anything it's going to have a negative effect on that one kid, becaue he's not going to understand why everyone else is doing something and he isn't. It just doesn't make sense to me that there's any question about the issue, since the seperation of church and state is pretty much a given these days, except for all the radical right wingers who never did dig it...

[Herbmama]

I think asking kids to say the pledge in school is just wrong in the first place, and creepy to boot.

What point does it serve...other than brainwashing? Asking someone to swear something (alligence, loyalty) that they don't understand to a entity (the government) they can't yet fathom...it just smacks of mindless nationalism and facism.

As for the gods bit...we threw that in to seperate us from the godless commies, so it would stand to reason that we would now drop it to seperate us from the zelot terrorists.

[morningsunshine]

I think asking kids to say the pledge in school is just wrong in the first place, and creepy to boot.

What point does it serve...other than brainwashing? Asking someone to swear something (alligence, loyalty) that they don't understand to a entity (the government) they can't yet fathom...it just smacks of mindless nationalism and facism.

As for the gods bit...we threw that in to seperate us from the godless commies, so it would stand to reason that we would now drop it to seperate us from the zelot terrorists.
You know what's really creepy? They teach it in spanish and creole to the hispanic and haitian kids at my school that don't understand english. In fact it is the very first thing they learn, before even "Hello" and "How are you".
Have you ever heard the pledge? It's completely devoid of emotion, from rote memory and in a complete monotone. I really don't like to listen to it, it sounds like a chant from a cult or something.

[toman]

I agree. When you step back and think about it apart from the politics, it is as a whole a pretty creepy thing. Something I would not expect to see in America...

[angymnast247]

I agree with the whole if ya dont want to say it dont. and that we should not disipline those who decide not to say it. personaly i do belive in a God, yet i do not really belive in all of the christian principals or any religion for that reason. i also say some different words when i say the pledge (im still in school) such as to make the whole world connected. :group_hug

wow now that i think about it everyone for about 30 seconds stareds at a flag and pledges to it. my goodness that is creepy.
peace and love
~alyssa

[Unkle_John]

To add more creepiness to it, think of it this way:
You are pledging yourself (your life) to a false idol (the flag, the country, the people, etc.). You are pledging to protect it from evil and harm. Now wouldn't that go against the christan view of "thou shalt not worship false idols"? And yet christians who oppose the change (like it will ever be changed back) want to keep god in the pledge because maybe it erases that line between true and false gods?

Just a thought. To me I always felt it was kinda occult-ic. Like a secret society pledge. Which I cannot devulge.

FLT

[treehugger]

To add more creepiness to it, think of it this way:
You are pledging yourself (your life) to a false idol (the flag, the country, the people, etc.). You are pledging to protect it from evil and harm. Now wouldn't that go against the christan view of "thou shalt not worship false idols"? And yet christians who oppose the change (like it will ever be changed back) want to keep god in the pledge because maybe it erases that line between true and false gods?

Just a thought. To me I always felt it was kinda occult-ic. Like a secret society pledge. Which I cannot devulge.

FLT

Yeah, it always reminds me of a cross between Nazi Germany and 1984...