Saddam's on trial; when will George get his turn?

[toman]

So they're trying him for torturing and killing some 150 men; a "crime against humanity". If that's a crime against humanity, what do we call the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqies in a war waged by a religious extremist for no legitimate reason, the destruction of an entire first world nation, and the creation of an indefinately unmanageable situation on the other side of the workd? Not to mention the deaths of our own people who have been sent to their deaths fighting for a non-existant cause...

[Dead Fan]

Fuck them all (war jockies, IE Bush Saddam Bin Laden and all like them.) Which first world nation is being destroyed?

[Unkle_John]

Saddam's on trial; when will George get his turn?

Not soon enough, toman. Not soon enough.

[LIBRA]

150 men?? Thats it?? not that its not alot, I just thougth his trial would be for alot more then that.

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

Saddam's on trial; when will George get his turn?

Perhaps you could provide us with some example of what exactally dubya has done to warrent a trial?

[PEACE FROG]

Perhaps you could provide us with some example of what exactally dubya has done to warrent a trial?GOD your'e an IDIOT!!!!! He invaded an innocent country and killed countless woman and children. You stupid nazi fuck. Why don't you and your skinny white nazi ass get out of my houseTROLLBtw I agree with Tom......

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

GOD your'e an IDIOT!!!!! He invaded an innocent country and killed countless woman and children. You stupid nazi fuck. Why don't you and your skinny white nazi ass get out of my houseTROLLBtw I agree with Tom......

RAWWWRRRR!!!!1

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/FukNRekd/owned/britney-smart.jpg

You post in a way that makes slugs and other invertebrates look like Nobel Prize winners. How about putting that into proper syntax, form, and grammar so that I can at least understand what you are saying before I dismiss it?

Is there a gibberish translator in the house? I can't make head nor nail of that uber-babble you flung onto the screen during your latest spasmodic seizure. Your post is an orgy of stultifying cacophonous verbal depravity; an exercise in literary impotence, and an offense to all of good taste and decency.

FYI, the women and children being killed in Iraq are being killed by terrorists, not GWB. GWB is there trying to stop it from happening.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/FukNRekd/owned/BushLootingcopy.jpg

[toman]

FYI, the women and children being killed in Iraq are being killed by terrorists, not GWB. GWB is there trying to stop it from happening.
lol... This made my day. I keep forgetting that Iraq was nothing but a country full of terrorists beofre our freedom fighters blew the hell out of it... :D Seriously dude, aren't there plenty of other forums where pro-war people can join in a big circle jerk while they speak in circles about terrorists? Have you noticed you're the only one here who is making an ass of himself?

[treehugger]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhairedskinnywhiteboy
FYI, the women and children being killed in Iraq are being killed by terrorists, not GWB. GWB is there trying to stop it from happening.


Quote:
Originally posted by Toman
lol... This made my day. I keep forgetting that Iraq was nothing but a country full of terrorists beofre our freedom fighters blew the hell out of it... Seriously dude, aren't there plenty of other forums where pro-war people can join in a big circle jerk while they speak in circles about terrorists? Have you noticed you're the only one here who is making an ass of himself?

I have to admit, that WAS one of the more (among many) asine posts by lhswb I've read. I agree, Toman.

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

Wow, are you blind AND retarded?

Here's a link to a site that has the statistics on civilian casualties.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/

Something to note about the site:

This is a human security project to establish an independent and comprehensive public database of media-reported civilian deaths in Iraq resulting directly from military action by the USA and its allies. This database includes up to 7,350 deaths which resulted from coalition military action during the "major-combat" phase prior to May 1st 2003.

Note that they said 'resulting directly from military action by the USA'. When you read the "TARGET" and "WEAPON" columns, you will see that the bulk of those deaths WERE NOT CAUSED BY US FORCES, they were caused by the terrorists, (freedom fighters as you would call them)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/FukNRekd/Other/targets.jpg

The next BS line you'll try to use is that if the US wasn't there, the casualties wouldn't have happened.

Yes. They would have. Even worse.

Read below from this (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=3889&R=C495A28)site.

I've highlighted some key points for you so you don't have to read the whole thing if you don't want to, but you should.

A Lifesaving War
The death toll in Iraq would have been vastly higher over the last year if Saddam had remained in power.
by Gerard Alexander
03/29/2004, Volume 009, Issue 28


A YEAR AGO, possible civilian casualties loomed large in the debate over whether to invade Iraq. Opponents of the war estimated likely casualties in the hundreds of thousands. One heavily cited United Nations report projected 100,000 to 500,000 Iraqi civilians would die or suffer injury and/or starvation. Of course, those projections were wildly off. Just after Baghdad fell, University of Chicago political scientist Daniel Drezner pointed out that casualties had been "less than one percent of what was projected." But everyone agreed that estimates of civilian casualties deserved to be factored into our decision.

Today's debate would benefit from a second estimate. How many Iraqi civilian lives have been saved by the use of force against Saddam? John Burns, who covered the war for the New York Times, guessed that in the first six weeks of war fewer Iraqis had died than would have "if Saddam Hussein's killing machine had gone about its daily business." Estimating how many lives have been saved by a tyrant's overthrow is as messy and hypothetical as projecting how many will be lost in a coming war, but the exercise is based on something concrete. Saddam's regime murdered people every year, and would have murdered some number of people had it remained in place over the past 12 months. We can't know exactly how many. But we can make an educated guess based on the regime's record--its long-term rate of killing--combined with its behavior in the period leading up to its overthrow.

Figuring out exactly how many people were killed in Saddam's 24 years as president of Iraq isn't easy. Saddam's murders were frequent and numerous, but the victims and their executioners were often the only witnesses. The true extent of his murderousness will be revealed only when Iraq's many mass graves are exhumed, an enormous and painfully slow task that has just begun. For now, though, we have credible estimates to work with. Almost certainly, most of them understate the regime's bloodletting.

In 1979, when Saddam became president, violence in Iraq escalated dramatically. The regime committed both individual murders and mass murder. The former category eliminated individuals suspected of anti-regime (or just anti-Saddam) sentiments or activities. This included Saddam's personal and factional enemies in the party, disloyal (or insufficiently obsequious) military officers, active or suspected dissidents in Iraq's general population, and many others whose only sin was being a friend or relative of such persons. In 1989, Amnesty International reported hundreds of such executions per year, stretching back over a decade. Some years, these murders reached into the thousands. Of course, any numbers derived from these killings do not include many thousands of cases of torture, rape, amputation, branding, and other atrocities committed by Saddam's regime that stopped short of death.

Its rate of killing was far higher when the regime targeted entire communities. Shia Muslims, ethnic Kurds, and smaller ethnic and religious minorities were constantly subject to violence from the regime (as well as many other forms of repression). In his first dozen years in power, Saddam assaulted at least one of these groups with truly massive violence on average every three years. After Iran's Shia revolution, Saddam became concerned that Iraq's own Shias might try to follow suit. In 1980, Iraq attacked Iran, at which point Saddam wanted also to ensure that Iraqi Shias would not assist their Shia brethren. To these ends, the regime murdered thousands--quite possibly 50,000, according to Human Rights Watch--including Shia clerics.

The Iran-Iraq war put large strains on Iraq's economy, military, and regime. Saddam dealt with the resulting problems in characteristic fashion. Just as with Stalin during World War II, large amounts of blood were shed not only on the military front, but also behind it. Shias were not the only targets. In a single episode in the mid-1980s, the regime rounded up and killed around 10,000 Kurds. Even before the war ended, the regime launched a much more ambitious program to wipe out entire Kurdish communities. It was in this military campaign--named Operation Anfal--that the regime used chemical weapons against several Kurdish towns, killing thousands. Human Rights Watch estimated that Anfal killed "more than 100,000" Kurds, and that Kurdish victims of the regime's campaigns between 1983 and 1993 reached "well into six figures."

I'm out of space, continued on next post...

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

Continuing from previous post...



Kurdish groups estimate Anfal's victims were even higher, up to 180,000. Whatever the exact number, Human Rights Watch concluded that "the Iraqi regime committed the crime of genocide." Anfal's intense phase lasted three months in the spring of 1988. If we estimate its victims at 100,000, the regime was killing Kurds alone at a rate of around 30,000 each month, or a thousand a day.

The collapse of most of Saddam's army in the first Gulf War inspired an uprising or intifada within the military and among the Kurds and Shia. The regime responded with the largest killing spree in its history.

Unfortunately, little information is available about the violence directed against Shias, who are believed to have suffered the worst of this backlash. Initial reports conservatively estimated at least 50,000 Shia victims. More horrifying--but believable--reports have come from Iraqi state security officials who fled Saddam's fickle wrath after 1991. One defecting officer reported that he supervised the killing and burial of approximately 4,000 Shias at one site in one morning alone--this, in an operation that lasted weeks. The U.S. report "Life Under Saddam Hussein" states that "Iraqi officials themselves have privately acknowledged that the regime slaughtered as many as 200,000 Shia" or even more in 1991.

The number of Kurds who died in 1991--killed by Saddam's forces or fleeing them--is estimated at 50,000 to 80,000. This range would have been much higher, except that the Gulf War Allies intervened in Iraq's north in response to the massive flow of desperate Kurdish refugees escaping the regime's onslaught. While it was allowed to proceed, the regime killed Kurds at a rate of tens of thousands a month. The regime also killed an unknown number of people living in Iraq's southern marshes in military campaigns stretching into 1992.

This means that for a time in the early spring of 1991, Saddam's regime was killing Shias and Kurds combined at a rate of tens of thousands per week, and would have gone on doing so in the north for much longer had the Americans, British, and French not created a "safe haven" for Kurds inside northern Iraq, which Saddam's forces were basically barred from entering.

In the 1990s, Saddam's regime continued to commit individual political murder. Victims included people suspected of anti-Saddam activity, others who were friends and relatives of the suspected subversives, as well as people caught up in the mafia-like violence of Uday Hussein and other regime figures. Throughout these years, Amnesty International catalogued credible reports of hundreds of killings every year, and quite possibly thousands in several years.

From 1997 to 1999, the regime "cleansed" its prisons, executing up to 2,500 people. Around the same time, the regime began a new campaign against selected Shia. Prominent Shia clerics were assassinated, prompting public demonstrations, which were savagely suppressed with an unknown number of victims. And a new military offensive was launched against groups in the southern marshes in 1998. In the decade leading up to the Coalition invasion, political murder also extended deeper into the regime's ranks than ever before. Thousands in the military died in periodic purges, and killing extended even into Sunni tribes and Saddam's own family.

Four months before Saddam's fall, Human Rights Watch estimated that up to 290,000 people had "disappeared" since the late 1970s and were presumed dead. The Coalition Provisional Authority's human rights office estimates that 300,000 bodies are contained in the numerous mass graves. "And that's the lower end of the estimates," said one CPA spokesperson. In fact, the accumulated credible reports make the likely number at least 400,000 to 450,000. So, by a conservative estimate, the regime was killing civilians at an average rate of at least 16,000 a year between 1979 and March 2003.

HAD SADDAM REMAINED IN POWER over the past year, individual political murders would have continued, and might well have accelerated given the tensions and fears caused by his regime's high-wire confrontation with the Coalition countries. This would have meant several thousand deaths. What of murders committed en masse? Between 1991 and March 2003, the regime carried out no exterminations on the scale of Anfal. Had the leopard changed its spots? Hardly. The few years leading up to the invasion suggest events might well have been building to another round of mass murder. Some totalitarian regimes kill so many of their opponents and smash civil society so completely that eventually no group has the resources to threaten the regime in any way. This explains why the Soviet Union killed fewer people after Stalin. Saddam's regime never achieved this goal. To the very end, Iraq contained large groups that Saddam was prepared to target with massive violence.

How many Iraqis were saved by the use of force against Saddam can be counted in several ways. At a bare minimum, several thousand Iraqis were saved from being killed in individual political murders. This includes political prisoners (including children) who poured from Saddam's dungeons at liberation, Shia activists, other dissenters, and military men suspected of disloyalty. Toppling Saddam also saved several thousand more at dire risk from his gradually rising violence against the Shia. If the Shia or Kurds were targeted with wholesale murder, as seemed increasingly likely, the regime could easily have resumed killing at its historic rate of 15,000 to 20,000 deaths a year. Specifically, the West's already existing threat to use force inside Iraq to protect Kurdistan--a threat whose credibility might well have collapsed if the Coalition had crumbled last year--saved tens of thousands more from certain death every year it was in place.

U.N. economic sanctions were also killing civilians. Critics regularly claimed sanctions caused 4,000 to 5,000 Iraqi children to die per month from poor nutrition and health care. UNICEF attributed some 500,000 unnecessary deaths to the sanctions in the 1990s. The sanctions remained in place as long as Saddam's regime refused to comply with international requirements. Liberation made it possible to lift the sanctions almost immediately--thus saving approximately 60,000 lives a year, if we use UNICEF's numbers.

At some point in the past year, the number of Iraqi civilians who would have been killed by Saddam's continuing rule surpassed the number who died because of the war. We will never know for sure when that moment occurred, whether earlier or later than the six-week mark guessed at by the New York Times's John Burns. But it has long since passed. And that margin will grow with each passing year that Iraqis are free from Saddam. People genuinely motivated by a concern for Iraqi civilians have much to be grateful for. Terrorist bombings inside Iraq since liberation show just how little Baathists value Iraqi civilian lives, and just how ready they would be to resume mass murder if the world let them.

Gerard Alexander is an associate professor of politics at the University of Virginia, where he teaches a course on the politics of the Holocaust.

Like I said, THINK before you stick your foot in your mouth. I don't care if you're FOR or AGAINST the war, I just care that you KNOW THE FACTS, and THESE ARE THE FACTS THAT YOU WILL NOT HEAR ON THE NEWS.

[unclejoe]

you have illuminated something that many haven't considered.

i checked the site. though it is conservative view, the contributors are varied.

thank you for the information, lhswb.

[LIBRA]

Terrorist bombings inside Iraq since liberation show just how little Baathists value Iraqi civilian lives, and just how ready they would be to resume mass murder if the world let them.

I agree with that, its so sad.
I do agree with taking sadam down he was and is a sick man, I just think the went it went about was iffy, either way death was inevidable imo, they needed our help and I dont know how else it would have been gotten, what was another option?? It couldnt be ignored, they would keep attacking us and we didnt give them a chance.
I guess I have mixed emotions on the situations, and I know its due to lack of information, things I want to know I will never know because its all locked up in the politicians heads. I do think greed does terrible things and I hope its not whats driving this war.

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

I agree with that, its so sad.
I do agree with taking sadam down he was and is a sick man, I just think the went it went about was iffy, either way death was inevidable imo, they needed our help and I dont know how else it would have been gotten, what was another option?? It couldnt be ignored, they would keep attacking us and we didnt give them a chance.
I guess I have mixed emotions on the situations, and I know its due to lack of information, things I want to know I will never know because its all locked up in the politicians heads. I do think greed does terrible things and I hope its not whats driving this war.

Believe it or not, Libra, I have mixed emotions on it too. That's why I'm trying to get as many facts out as I can. There is a great deal of 'misleading' going on by the mainstream media. And a lot of people are falling for it.

It's sad, really.

Thanks for taking the time to read AND comprehend what I'm posting.

[toman]

Right. So the fact that U.S forces are present in Iraq have had little impact on civilian deaths, right? If we were not there, those people and more would have died? The fact is George Bush and his corrupt regime are just as guilty of crimes against humanity as anyone else. The statistics, ratios and numbers don't make any difference; the fact is thousands of people on both sides are dying, and for no good reason. We've created a situation where people are going to continue to die, violence is going to remain a way of life, and a previously great country is reduced to ruble and chaos. But, because George Bush is the "leader of the free world", a "Christian", and because his regime has more power than any other group, suddenly what they do is supposed to be acceptable to the world. If you ask the majority of the U.S. citizens, it's not. (39% approval rating?) The rest of the world thinks it's unacceptable. So why is nothing being done about it? That's my question. The percentage of people, both in power and not, that approve of the atrocities our government is commiting is very small, yet nobody is standing up and saying or doing anything about it. How long is it going to take for this to happen? Ten Years? Twenty years? Before someone can conjure the balls to instigate an investigation and actually take appropriate action against the people who are commiting these crimes? By that time, how many human lives will have been lost, and to what end?

Please don't troll this thread into yet another argument about the terrorists, the need for war, or any other pro-war anti-war crap. There's only one pro-war person (troll) on this forum; there's no need to discuss the same old BS anymore. If you really feel the need to, please, take it elsewhere.

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

The fact is George Bush and his corrupt regime are just as guilty of crimes against humanity as anyone else. The statistics, ratios and numbers don't make any difference; the fact is thousands of people on both sides are dying, and for no good reason. ....


Funny you should bring up the word FACT when you don't know what it means.

Like I said, perhaps you could be just a slight bit responsible and provide PROOF for what you consider to be FACT.

Can you do that?

The "FACT" the people are dying for "no good reason" is NOT fact, it's OPINION.

You're so full of yourself and your "the world is a friendly peaceful place" that I can smell it from here.

Seriously, you make so many claims and have yet to provide ANY PROOF FOR THEM.

You're basically just running off at the mouth because you have no clue how to research anything. You have no merit, and your OPINIONS don't mean squat.

[PEACE FROG]

Perhaps you could provide us with some example of what exactally dubya has done to warrent a trial? I especially enjoy the way you spell. Your creative spelling.... Exactly and warrant never looked better!!! Why do you choose to live in a glass house, and throw stones? Oh and BTW... get outta my house TROLL!!!!!

[PEACE FROG]

RAWWWRRRR!!!!1

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/FukNRekd/owned/britney-smart.jpg

You post in a way that makes slugs and other invertebrates look like Nobel Prize winners. How about putting that into proper syntax, form, and grammar so that I can at least understand what you are saying before I dismiss it?

Is there a gibberish translator in the house? I can't make head nor nail of that uber-babble you flung onto the screen during your latest spasmodic seizure. Your post is an orgy of stultifying cacophonous verbal depravity; an exercise in literary impotence, and an offense to all of good taste and decency.

FYI, the women and children being killed in Iraq are being killed by terrorists, not GWB. GWB is there trying to stop it from happening.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/FukNRekd/owned/BushLootingcopy.jpgThanks????? I guess that was suppose to make you look smart. Okay first, I want you to leave, go to another forum. You are not welcome here. Go somewhere else. Get the fuck out of my house!!!! Now if you need someone to translate, just about anyone here can. Why? because they belong here and you don't.

[Herbmama]

Peace Frog, I'll see that "Get out of my house." and raise it a "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!" ;)

[Dead Fan]

Toman the thing about people disagreeing with what Georgie boy is up to is that the only people who care enough to actually say anything and mean it because they give a damn is real people and many of those are people whos jobs and way of living will not rely on what you say and do. Look at the sixties, the only people who got anything done were those who didntt give a damn if they lived or died. They stood up to the big government bullies and got their point across. Like the people in the civil rights movement they wanted things to change and they didnt care if they had to be poor and jobless for a time to get it. Then look at the other side your politicians and celebrities who do things for media attention that doesnt help anybody in real life. Did John Lenin and Yoko actually accomplish anything by growing out their hair and laying in bed eating three squares a day with cameras all around them? NO, even in todays world this happens. Live 8? A bunch of whiny musicians complaining about how other people should give money or how the government should relive anothere countries debt when that country may change government regimes every so often by hostile take over. Yet these singers and actors dont sacrefice anything from themselves. DO you know how much a starving african child would have done for the crap Bono got for doing Live 8? What im trying to say is Celebs and other people in power dont care about us or the rest of the world unless it is convinient for them. THe only people who can make change are those willing to sacrefice. Example: The Red Revolution.

[PEACE FROG]

Excellent post Mr. Dead Fan. You sound like a caring individual. Like the song said, "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose". Sometimes you must be willing to lose everything, not just pandering or posturing. If not, what is worth having? Dead Fan, you n' me be mates.

[Dead Fan]

Good to know Peace Frog. Glad to have a friend like you. Im really happy that my point was taken as I meant it. :group_hug :cheers:

[treehugger]

My kudos to you, Dead Fan, and also you, Toman, Peace Frog and Herb Mama for standing up for your beliefs. Awesome. My heart glows.

Kath

[Dead Fan]

You as well treehugger! :D

[morningsunshine]

Peace Frog, I'll see that "Get out of my house." and raise it a "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!" ;)
And I'll chip in with an... "oh nevermind... please do!"

[LIBRA]

Ya know, people have different beliefs on whats right or wrong, just because some think differently and get upset because its not understood, they should leave?? I look at every ones opionions as valid as my own. I may not agree with them or the way they are spoken but to each his own.
I have so many opinoins on the lots of things and I would never belittle someone beacuse his/hers are different from mine i think it goes against everything I beleive, like NOT JUDGING PEOPLE.
I think all the name calling and belitteling is stupid and childish, if I cant understand where someone is coming from, I try to or ignore them and go about your buisness, nothing gets acomplished or understood unless we try.

I agree that people are dying for no good reason people for or against the war I would think feel the same way, it wont change untill people can understand and work together to change this world and I dont see it happening, it cant even be done on a forum let alone the whole world.

people cant see eye to eye, untill we do, this will go on, and on, and on.
take alittle of one person thinks or says, and think about it before you trash them or make a thread just to call them out because you dont agree.

[Herbmama]

Libra I think LHSWG SHOULD leave because he is a Troll, I'm pretty damn sure he's an OLD troll at that.

If the guy could carry on a conversation without being condescending and treat everyone like crap I'd be fine with having him here. Calmly, rationally, respectfully discussed dissenting ideas are wonderful, mind broadening things...when you sit on a high horse and throw them, laced with insults at people you refuse to get to know or show respect to...now that's a whole nother thing and it isn’t welcome.

[LIBRA]

Libra I think LHSWG SHOULD leave because he is a Troll, I'm pretty damn sure he's an OLD troll at that.

If the guy could carry on a conversation without being condescending and treat everyone like crap I'd be fine with having him here. Calmly, rationally, respectfully discussed dissenting ideas are wonderful, mind broadening things...when you sit on a high horse and throw them, laced with insults at people you refuse to get to know or show respect to...now that's a whole nother thing and it isn’t welcome.


Oh I dont disagree with the way he goes about his approach, most of what I was saying was directed towards that, and I was hoping he could see that.
I really dont like the way he treats everyone but maybe if we could stop calling names we could get into a conversation with out all that crap??

I am not sticking up for him, I just re read my post, it was more of how I feel in general not towards Lhswb.

[treehugger]

Libra, I appreciate your willingness to give people the benefit of the doubt...but I really don't think he is going to give a damn about anything you've written. It's pretty obvious from reading everything he's written that he's just here to stir the pot. He is condescending, rude, and flings personal insults around here like they're candy.

I, for one, would love to see the door hit him on the ass.

[PEACE FROG]

I think it would be boring if everyone had the same opinion Libra. Our differences are what makes this country so unique. Debate is also very healthy, but this guy is a Troll holdout. Even that little rant he posted about me not being able to form a sentence or some shit, was posted earlier during the troll occupation and was cut and pasted. So he's not even original or a smart troll. I do however regret the language I used. I'm just tired of it, I want our community, our family, back the way it was. Sorry if I've offended anyone, accept him. I don't like his name, his sig-line or anything he says.

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

Libra, I appreciate your willingness to give people the benefit of the doubt...but I really don't think he is going to give a damn about anything you've written. It's pretty obvious from reading everything he's written that he's just here to stir the pot. He is condescending, rude, and flings personal insults around here like they're candy.

I, for one, would love to see the door hit him on the ass.


It's pretty obvious you haven't read everything I've written here. Perhaps you should go back and do some research (http://www.happyhippie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=21643&postcount=14)before inserting your foot into your mouth again (http://www.happyhippie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=21466&postcount=9). I treat Libby with respect because she can hear and see. That's something very hard to find on this site.

[LIBRA]

I guess its just the way I am.

Balance, ya know I am a Libra :smilie_wa
Its not my nick name for nothin!!! :)


I dont think he is a troll from before either, really I dont. If he was, I dont think he would even bother trying to get his opnion across no matter how jaded it may be.

[Herbmama]

I guess its just the way I am.

Balance, ya know I am a Libra :smilie_wa
Its not my nick name for nothin!!! :)


I dont think he is a troll from before either, really I dont. If he was, I dont think he would even bother trying to get his opnion across no matter how jaded it may be.


I don't know about that...as I remember you were able to momentarially befriend some of the trolls, then they'd turn right around and act like smucks again. :(

[LIBRA]

I don't know about that...as I remember you were able to momentarially befriend some of the trolls, then they'd turn right around and act like smucks again. :(


You dont know about what? Me being me or if lhswb is a troll?
Whatever I am not gonna play this game with you guys, you cant see anyother points but your own so I am done trying.

Those trolls were being smucks but ya know what I dont care, there are way more important things to care about then this, to much attention is focused on the who's at fault for what its so old, this place will never be the same and we need to get over it or try to make it a better place.
And I try to befriend people whats the harm in that, it actually makes me feel good even if they are jerks, that makes me feel better knowing that I will never be like that. I do speak my mind and say what I feel most of the time I have argued with the trolls and the rude people still here, I guess I am going nowhere with this so I will stop. And from now on I guess I will keep my opinions to myself and just say nothing that will make everyone happy hippies again right, saying nothing??

I dont mean to be rude really, and I know you guys like civilized conversations and I do to, I just see things differently I guess, things dont generally bother me its the internet ya know, if it were someone to my face saying those things Id probably cry!!!

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

... you cant see anyother points but your own
...

My point exactally. Most people here are so blind and closed minded it's putrid. They dismiss anything and everything that doesn't fit nicely into their skewed and single-minded perception of life.

Unfortunately for most here, I'm not done. It's kind of fun for me to watch some of these schlemiel get all bent out of shape when I slap them in the face with the truth.

:kngt:

[LIBRA]

Unfortunately for most here, I'm not done. It's kind of fun for me to watch some of these schlemiel get all bent out of shape when I slap them in the face with the truth.


See now thats the problem, you shouldnt enjoy that!!
If you want people to see the truth dont mock them with it, and you cant help get your point across that way, no one wants to be treated that way.
I could talk till im blue in the freakin face but it doesnt matter, you dont see other peoples points either, just your own, im not gonna try to balance this good and evil bit, it appears to be pointless.

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

See now thats the problem, you shouldnt enjoy that!!
If you want people to see the truth dont mock them with it, and you cant help get your point across that way, no one wants to be treated that way.
I could talk till im blue in the freakin face but it doesnt matter, you dont see other peoples points either, just your own, im not gonna try to balance this good and evil bit, it appears to be pointless.


That's where you're wrong. I know I won't be able to change minds here, they're too stupid. (You excluded, like I said, your eyes are open). But like I said, it's fun watching them get all bent out of shape when I show them the truth. They get all mad and/or defensive.

You're also wrong about me not changing my views because of other's opinions/input. I recently converted from a somewhat liberal attitude. I had many of the same views I see here. Then I got slammed with facts left and right. I was confused so I did some open-minded research and found out my head was in my ass so far that I couldn't see straight.

Believe it or not, I did NOT vote for shrub his first term, only his second. ;)

[LIBRA]

You're also wrong about me not changing my views because of other's opinions/input. I recently converted from a somewhat liberal attitude. I had many of the same views I see here. Then I got slammed with facts left and right. I was confused so I did some open-minded research and found out my head was in my ass so far that I couldn't see straight.


So dont name call then, its way hipocritical, if your head "WAS" in the sand and you believe it is not anymore then why do you laugh and judge others?

They way you think is the way you think, nothing will change that so dont belittle people for not thinking the way you do.

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

.. dont belittle people for not thinking the way you do.

I'm not. I'm belittling them because they're not thinking.

There's a difference. Have I belittled you? :edit: recently :/edit:

[morningsunshine]

It's pretty obvious you haven't read everything I've written here. Perhaps you should go back and do some research (http://www.happyhippie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=21643&postcount=14)before inserting your foot into your mouth again (http://www.happyhippie.com/vb/showpost.php?p=21466&postcount=9). I treat Libby with respect because she can hear and see. That's something very hard to find on this site.
You like her because she doesn't always have a strong opinion and she's the only one that doesn't see you for the rude, condescending person that you are.

There's a difference between giving people the benefit of the doubt and just realizing that people are mean, belittling shmuck-os. Once bitten, twice shy, yes?

No offense to you, Libra.

[LIBRA]

You like her because she doesn't always have a strong opinion and she's the only one that doesn't see you for the rude, condescending person that you are.

There's a difference between giving people the benefit of the doubt and just realizing that people are mean, belittling shmuck-os. Once bitten, twice shy, yes?

No offense to you, Libra.


I am offended, dont put words in my mouth I do see him as rude and I am pretty sure I have said it, ya know what, whatever Ive said it before but really I am done arguing this bull shit with you guys, call eachother every freakin name in the book I dont give a rats ass anymore, nothing will get solved. And we wonder why no one can get along in this world with different views, people fight and clash, it cant even be done on a HAPPY HIPPY website!! Real happy.

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

You like her because she doesn't always have a strong opinion and she's the only one that doesn't see you for the rude, condescending person that you are.

There's a difference between giving people the benefit of the doubt and just realizing that people are mean, belittling shmuck-os. Once bitten, twice shy, yes?

No offense to you, Libra.

I think you've been in the sun too long. Do I seem like the kind of person that would like somebody who is weak? Event though she is NOT weak? It is YOU that are weak. You hide behind your rolling papers and tofu, afraid to come out to the real world and see what's really going on. You dismiss facts because they scare you and then you have the balls to call somebody who CAN face the truth weak?? That's just pathetic. THEN you try to tell her you meant her no offense?

Pathetic. There isn't always 'sunshine' in the morning. Some times it rains. Some times it's a hurricane. But ALWAYS you're going to be ignorant. Always.

And we wonder why no one can get along in this world with different views,

Again, Libra has hit the point perfectly. We wonder why no one can get along in the world with different views. (Well, some wonder, I know.) It's because they refuse to listen to the other views. Their view is the ONLY ONE, regardless of if it's right or wrong, true or false, good or bad. It's YOUR view, welcome to it.

[Herbmama]

You dont know about what? Me being me or if lhswb is a troll?
Whatever I am not gonna play this game with you guys, you cant see anyother points but your own so I am done trying.

Those trolls were being smucks but ya know what I dont care, there are way more important things to care about then this, to much attention is focused on the who's at fault for what its so old, this place will never be the same and we need to get over it or try to make it a better place.
And I try to befriend people whats the harm in that, it actually makes me feel good even if they are jerks, that makes me feel better knowing that I will never be like that. I do speak my mind and say what I feel most of the time I have argued with the trolls and the rude people still here, I guess I am going nowhere with this so I will stop. And from now on I guess I will keep my opinions to myself and just say nothing that will make everyone happy hippies again right, saying nothing??

I dont mean to be rude really, and I know you guys like civilized conversations and I do to, I just see things differently I guess, things dont generally bother me its the internet ya know, if it were someone to my face saying those things Id probably cry!!!

I mean I don't know about him "not being a troll"...
Libra, I hope no one here is telling you not to speak your mind...I'm not even sure where your getting that idea. :(

[Herbmama]

I am offended, dont put words in my mouth I do see him as rude and I am pretty sure I have said it, ya know what, whatever Ive said it before but really I am done arguing this bull shit with you guys, call eachother every freakin name in the book I dont give a rats ass anymore, nothing will get solved. And we wonder why no one can get along in this world with different views, people fight and clash, it cant even be done on a HAPPY HIPPY website!! Real happy.

:confused:
The whole point I was trying to make was that we could all disagree and debate, if we could do it in a civil manner. I'm sick of people here being called names and treated rudely.

[Herbmama]

You like her because she doesn't always have a strong opinion and she's the only one that doesn't see you for the rude, condescending person that you are.

There's a difference between giving people the benefit of the doubt and just realizing that people are mean, belittling shmuck-os. Once bitten, twice shy, yes?

No offense to you, Libra.

:( I don't think this was fair to Libra.

[LIBRA]

:confused:
The whole point I was trying to make was that we could all disagree and debate, if we could do it in a civil manner. I'm sick of people here being called names and treated rudely.

me too, me too. I dont think civil is an option for some. I would like it to be though.

I mean I don't know about him "not being a troll"...

Good for a second I was thinking you ment You didnt know about me :confused: but I am not confused now, its hard sometimes to understand stuff online with not seeing facial expressions and hearing tones in voices ya know.

All is good, and I wont hold back my opinions, ever, I cant I think I would explode!! People who know me, one of the things they love about me is I am very vocal, if I feel it I say it, wrong or right with some descretion (sp) of course ;)

[treehugger]

So, I'm addressing this particular post to LHSWB. I'm curious, and this is meant to be a totally non-threatening post..I'm tired of you just telling us all how stupid and naive and "heads in the sand" we are.

I'm curious what you feel your political affiliations are? You strike me as a libertarian, but for all I know, I'm way off base. I guess you just remind me of my libertarian friends. In terms of, just I guess self survival types of issues and freedom issues. You don't strike me as a typical "conservative"...but correct me if I'm wrong. Where do you stand on, say, citizens rights and personal freedoms? What about rights to personal fulfillment for people?

Also I'm curious, you say you used to have opinions "like most of us here"...and by that I'm presuming you mean liberal/green party. (my personal affiliation).

What happened to change your outlook? What on earth made you become so bitter? It's just, that's how your posts strike me...bitter and full of hate. Were you in Desert Storm? What's up with you?

Again, I'm not intending this to be a negative post...I've always been curious about what makes things tick...people included.

Kath

[morningsunshine]

I think you've been in the sun too long. Do I seem like the kind of person that would like somebody who is weak? Event though she is NOT weak? It is YOU that are weak. You hide behind your rolling papers and tofu, afraid to come out to the real world and see what's really going on.

1. I don't smoke, I'm pregnant.
2. I enjoy a good burger just as much as anyone.

Don't generalize, asshole.

I see the facts, you fucko. Sure, I love the idea of peace and love just as much as anyone else and I try to practice them as much as I can, but I know that's not how things really are and I know that if I constantly ignore the less pleasant things than not only am I willfully ignorant but I'm also an ineffective citizen. However, that wasn't even what I was talking about. You waltz in here, make a nasty post here, a condescending remark there, and you just dont' fucking get that NOBODY here wants to hear your shit because NOBODY likes to be talked to like a little fucking kid. Maybe if you just RESPECTED people and treated them like they mattered instead of fucking ripping on them all the time, you'd get better feedback. But no. You are just such a fucking ass, all the time. ALL THE TIME. I am sick of you. I am just sick and tired of everything that you post because it's NEVER positive. EVER. All you do is look down on people. You're a horrible person, at least from what I can gather from your posts. And that's why nobody is ever nice to you or gives what you have to say a second thought, because YOU won't do the same to them. You can't accept that other people have strong opinions too, and not just you. You can't accept that you're not always right or that your opinion may not be the only one around. GET OVER YOURSELF and quit being such a fucking jerk because it's not making you get your point across any better or winning you any friends, even though I'm sure you don't care about how you come across to people. Why don't you stop living behind your little wall, your thick skull, and realize that you aren't always right? Jesus fucking Christ, just because we're "happy hippies" doesn't mean we're ignorant of what goes on around us. I'm not, anyway. I just have a strong opinion and you can't accept it. So get over it, asshole.

miss facts because they scare you and then you have the balls to call somebody who CAN face the truth weak?? That's just pathetic. THEN you try to tell her you meant her no offense?

where did I call her weak? Quote it.

There isn't always 'sunshine' in the morning. Some times it rains. Some times it's a hurricane. But ALWAYS you're going to be ignorant. Always.

Yeah I think I should know, I just went through one and even though I was lucky, people I know lost everything they had. So don't think I'm walking around with my eyes closed, I have a pair of rose-colored glasses but I don't wear them all the time.

Again, Libra has hit the point perfectly. We wonder why no one can get along in the world with different views. (Well, some wonder, I know.) It's because they refuse to listen to the other views. Their view is the ONLY ONE, regardless of if it's right or wrong, true or false, good or bad. It's YOUR view, welcome to it.


PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH, YOU FUCKING HYPOCRITE.

I don't get mad often, but damn, this one did it for me.

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

...
I'm curious what you feel your political affiliations are? You strike me as a libertarian, but for all I know, I'm way off base. I guess you just remind me of my libertarian friends. In terms of, just I guess self survival types of issues and freedom issues. You don't strike me as a typical "conservative"...but correct me if I'm wrong. Where do you stand on, say, citizens rights and personal freedoms? What about rights to personal fulfillment for people?

I don't have a political affiliation per se`. I believe citizens rights/personal freedoms are very important. As for the fulfillment of people, I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean I should work all day and give half my money to some mid-level government disfunctionary with a bad comb-over handing it out to crack addicts who are squirting out babies, then I am 95% against it. I believe in low taxes, small government but powerful military (important in this day and age), the right to do what I want so long as it doesn't interfere with others personally or publicly. I don't believe in gay marriage, but unions are fine with all the bene's of marriage. I believe Christmas should be allowed to be in public, and not called the "holidays". I believe that all races are equal, but I deeply dispise illegal immigration and what it's doing to this country and my family. I believe in the constitution and the bill or rights. I think education and unions is basically screwed (even though my wife works for a union, and I'm an P/T instructor) and fully support the California Governor in making the needed changes. I believe in the environment, but don't believe dubya is responsible for global warming or the hurricanes or earthquakes like the media would have you believe. (Those are natural cycles, if you'd care to know the truth)

If you have more specific questions, I'll happily address them.

Also I'm curious, you say you used to have opinions "like most of us here"...and by that I'm presuming you mean liberal/green party. (my personal affiliation).

Like I've said, I used to be in the Rainbow commune in Oregon. I'll let that speak for itself.

What happened to change your outlook? What on earth made you become so bitter? It's just, that's how your posts strike me...bitter and full of hate. Were you in Desert Storm? What's up with you?

I think growing up changed me. Having kids (2) changed me. The realization that there is a vast group of people in this world that have, for thousands of years, tried to convert the world to their belief or bring death to those that refuse has changed me. Seeing, plain as day, the lies put forth by the lieberal media day after day after day, and their relentless denial of the truth about what's going on in Iraq and elsewhere day after day after day has changed me. The constant attacks by extreme lieberals on the news and in the government on the issues that, although noble and good, are portrayed as wrong and evil, (no matter the cost) has changed me. Looking at people, like some of the people here, sucking in all the bullshit, lies, half-truths etc without even blinking an eye or at the very least researching some of the important issues for themselves has changed me.

[tlranger]

Msunshine- Very high regards and best wishes to you both; you and yours.

Tonto sayz; mellow now - mellow baby, maybe later.

Truly, stress is a killer, I hate to see you pass it on (catch fire again, later) but I do love the passion.

Peace T L Ranger

[tlranger]

lhswhiteboy- Have you seen movie 'Flashback', you might in joy. Sutherland and the guy off of 'Easy Rider' - forget his name.

Read post- interesting but got alittle lost at the end. Who's attacking who where? Maybe explain the good to evil part.

Do love to visit your part of country; Like to surf, sister lives in Carlsbad, but you sure have lots of cars out there. The temp. is the best. Locals I've meet say its a nice place to live. But last time out, the story was; dealers were being jacked and beaten. Pot heads and violence, what gives, got something in the water or what?

Peace T L Ranger

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

...
PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH, YOU FUCKING HYPOCRITE.

...

Enragement ensues... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/FukNRekd/Smile/applaudit.gif

Reading and comprehension is key, e-turd.

Perhaps you haven't read what I've posted, but I DO practice what I preach. I've heard all the lame-ass bush sucks, war is wrong BS before. Hell, I used to believe more than half of it. I'm willing to listen to anyone who has an idea.

Their OWN idea, not some trumped up bullshit they got from Micheal Moore or Moveon.org or CNN or Dan Blather or any of the other hate mongers that are trying to ruin this country for all the wrong reasons.

So before you get all butt-hurt and pissed off about me slapping you upside the head with facts you refuse to even CONSIDER and call me a hypocrite, perhaps you should open your fucking blood-shot eyes, pull your head out of what ever oriface it got lodged in, and look the fuck around you. If you're going to let politics get to you, (which you are), then at least KNOW THE FUCKING FACTS BEFORE YOU GO OFF ON SOMEONE WHO HAS RESEARCHED IT. Because if you don't (and you seemingly don't) and you go in blind like you are here, you're going to continue to get pissed off from repeated beatings on your head with the truth, whether you like it or not.

So take a fucking break, get out into life, and for God's sake, look around you with open eyes!

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

lhswhiteboy- Have you seen movie 'Flashback', you might in joy. Sutherland and the guy off of 'Easy Rider' - forget his name.

Read post- interesting but got alittle lost at the end. Who's attacking who where? Maybe explain the good to evil part.

Do love to visit your part of country; Like to surf, sister lives in Carlsbad, but you sure have lots of cars out there. The temp. is the best. Locals I've meet say its a nice place to live. But last time out, the story was; dealers were being jacked and beaten. Pot heads and violence, what gives, got something in the water or what?

Peace T L Ranger

Hi.

No. Haven't seen Flashback. Not real big on movies/TV.

Good vs evil?? Are you referring to this...?

The constant attacks by extreme lieberals on the news and in the government on the issues that, although noble and good, are portrayed as wrong and evil, (no matter the cost) has changed me.

Ahhh, San Diego. I don't know what to say about the people here. There's plenty of good and bad. I recently moved out of the 'main stream' and back into the country where I'm happier. It's nice being able to walk more than 10 feet from my porch and not be in my neighbor's yard. It's also nice not having a mariachi band playing the chicken song behind my house until 1:00am every other Saturday, and the tweakers across the street trashing the place every nite.

But most of all, (and yes, I guess it's racially motivated, though I'm not normally racial), I'm glad to be out of a neighborhood that, in the last 5 years, has ONLY sold houses to multiple families of (often illegal) immigrants, several with 4 or 5 families to a house.

[PEACE FROG]

I am a veteran so I feel I have earned my opinion. I don't think that one needs a reason or a credible media source to not want to see another human being suffer or die. I have been mean to you because the things you say make you sound like a REDNECK NEO-CON ASSHOLE trying to pick a fight. But maybe you really believe what you say. And as Libra has said you do have the right to your own opinion. I'm sorry for my insults toward you, can you and I have a dialogue without the bullshit?

[treehugger]

I don't have a political affiliation per se`. I believe citizens rights/personal freedoms are very important. As for the fulfillment of people, I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean I should work all day and give half my money to some mid-level government disfunctionary with a bad comb-over handing it out to crack addicts who are squirting out babies, then I am 95% against it. I believe in low taxes, small government but powerful military (important in this day and age), the right to do what I want so long as it doesn't interfere with others personally or publicly. I don't believe in gay marriage, but unions are fine with all the bene's of marriage. I believe Christmas should be allowed to be in public, and not called the "holidays". I believe that all races are equal, but I deeply dispise illegal immigration and what it's doing to this country and my family. I believe in the constitution and the bill or rights. I think education and unions is basically screwed (even though my wife works for a union, and I'm an P/T instructor) and fully support the California Governor in making the needed changes. I believe in the environment, but don't believe dubya is responsible for global warming or the hurricanes or earthquakes like the media would have you believe. (Those are natural cycles, if you'd care to know the truth)

If you have more specific questions, I'll happily address them.



Like I've said, I used to be in the Rainbow commune in Oregon. I'll let that speak for itself.



I think growing up changed me. Having kids (2) changed me. The realization that there is a vast group of people in this world that have, for thousands of years, tried to convert the world to their belief or bring death to those that refuse has changed me. Seeing, plain as day, the lies put forth by the lieberal media day after day after day, and their relentless denial of the truth about what's going on in Iraq and elsewhere day after day after day has changed me. The constant attacks by extreme lieberals on the news and in the government on the issues that, although noble and good, are portrayed as wrong and evil, (no matter the cost) has changed me. Looking at people, like some of the people here, sucking in all the bullshit, lies, half-truths etc without even blinking an eye or at the very least researching some of the important issues for themselves has changed me.

Hey, thanks for the civil post. :D I guess by personal fulfillment of people I'm wondering about, say, if there's a Muslim living in America, do you think they should be able to practice Islam? How about legalization/decriminalization of marijuana? Abortion? Prayer in public schools? Patriot Act?

Just curious and interested. I believe strongly in personal freedoms for Americans, as long as we don't run around hurting each other. I just feel like lately the conservatives are TAKING away our rights. It used to be they were the party that stressed less government, laizzez faire governing (I'm sure I didn't spell that correctly). Seems now like they're becoming more and more like a theocracy, in terms of trying to impose christianity into laws. I think that's wrong. We should learn by looking at the governments of the Middle East, before we make religion the basis of OURS.

[LIBRA]

Im happy.
To brush a person off without giving them the benefit of the doubt isnt always best, you can always learn something from someone even if you think they are a complete asshole. You guys are great people, I really think that, and it kinda bothered me to see you get so upset, when it could have been talked about, hopefully!! Im still leery though I hope we can all talk with out the mean stuff, debate away but civily.

[LIBRA]

Seems now like they're becoming more and more like a theocracy, in terms of trying to impose christianity into laws. I think that's wrong. We should learn by looking at the governments of the Middle East, before we make religion the basis of OURS.



oh god I hope not, heehee pun intended!!

Really though good point, I never thought of it that way.
But Id hope they wouldnt take it so far, pretty sure most americans (christians) anyway, would not strap a bomb to themsleves for jesus, christians or not most are too selfish to think that way!! I sure as hell am ;)

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

I am a veteran so I feel I have earned my opinion. I don't think that one needs a reason or a credible media source to not want to see another human being suffer or die. I have been mean to you because the things you say make you sound like a REDNECK NEO-CON ASSHOLE trying to pick a fight. But maybe you really believe what you say. And as Libra has said you do have the right to your own opinion. I'm sorry for my insults toward you, can you and I have a dialogue without the bullshit?

I am not a veteran, so perhaps you feel I have not earned my opinion.

Unfortunately for you, that's part of the beauty of this country; I am still entitled to it, whether you think it's valid or not, whether you think it's right or not. Let me just say (honestly) thank you for your service. I do appreciate it.

Now that that's out of the way... the title of this thread, " Saddam's on trial; when will George get his turn?", screams of blind hate likely brought on by having one's nose planted firmly up lieberal media's ass with their eyes shut tight. Bush did nothing illegal. He, like the rest of the world, was told some things that may or may not have been true or up to date intel. And for that he is labeled a liar. What he's doing in Iraq and other places is very noble. The feelings of the majority of citizens in Iraq, (I have several friends there, as well as friends here from there, as well as friends in the military there), are very appreciative of Bush and Blair. You will NOT hear that on the main stream news. Period. You will not hear it. No matter how much good has been done there, you will not hear it. It IS happening, but you will not hear it. You have to look for it. If you want email addys of people in Iraq that you can talk to, I'll get you all you want.

So when I asked
Perhaps you could provide us with some example of what exactally dubya has done to warrent a trial?

I recieved this reply GOD your'e an IDIOT!!!!! He invaded an innocent country and killed countless woman and children. You stupid nazi fuck. Why don't you and your skinny white nazi ass get out of my houseTROLLBtw I agree with Tom......

Nobody has brought any kind of evidence what so ever to prove even slightly that Bush did ANYTHING wrong besides be mis-informed. Yet he is somehow responsible for terrorists targeting women and children. He is responsible for the millions of deaths by Saddam. (FYI, the US is spending billions of dollars and dozens of lives trying NOT to injure women and children. You dumb fuck frog, pull your fucking head out.)

So lets hear it. If you're so fucking convinced he has fucked the world, lets see exactally how. Show me. Show me what you believe and I'll show you (with facts) what I believe. If I can't prove what I believe, I'll tell you, or I wont bring it up. Have the courtesy to do the same.

If you can't do that, or simply aren't willing to do it, yet still feel you need to argue with me about it, then just shut the fuck up until you've got a leg to stand on.

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

Hey, thanks for the civil post. :D I guess by personal fulfillment of people I'm wondering about, say, if there's a Muslim living in America, do you think they should be able to practice Islam? How about legalization/decriminalization of marijuana? Abortion? Prayer in public schools? Patriot Act?

You're welcome.

I don't care what you practice, so long as it's not plotting to attack someone. Marijuana should be legal. It's a lot safer than alcohol. The government just hasn't figured out a good way to control/tax it yet. But it's coming I'm sure. I think abortion as a form of birth control is wrong, but abortion because of incest, rape, etc is justified. Ultimately, the women should have the right to decide. Prayer in public schools is fine as long as you're a) not forced to pray to something you don't believe in, and b) other's are allowed to pray to their beliefs, so long as they're not violent, like radical islam or black arts kind of thing.

The patriot act. Hrmm. That's a tough one. I haven't figured the entire thing out, but from what I can see so far, what we lose is minimal compared to what kind of safety it should bring us. That's my opinion so far, but I'm not done looking into it yet.

Just curious and interested. I believe strongly in personal freedoms for Americans, as long as we don't run around hurting each other. I just feel like lately the conservatives are TAKING away our rights. It used to be they were the party that stressed less government, laizzez faire governing (I'm sure I didn't spell that correctly). Seems now like they're becoming more and more like a theocracy, in terms of trying to impose christianity into laws. I think that's wrong. We should learn by looking at the governments of the Middle East, before we make religion the basis of OURS.

One thing to keep in mind, (besides the fact that I flat out despise the ACLU), is that this country was founded on the basis of Christianity. Most of the early laws show that. Your right to freedom OF religion is just that. It's NOT freedom FROM religion. You're free to worship what ever you want, and it needs to stay that way. Taking down crosses from public memorials, removing crosses from city/county seals, removing Christmas from every aspect of public life, and attacking the Boy Scouts because they don't want gay leaders and believe in God is fucking rediculous, and I will fight every one of them for it, even though I don't really believe in religion.

Looking at the Q'ran is probably not a great idea to base a religion or government around. While in the first part, it preaches peace, the latter half shows a side of islam that calls for death to those that don't practice islam. It's been like this for thousands of years. This isn't the first time islam has waged jihad against the world. They've been doing it since about 800BC or earlier. Only now they have oil. Oil means money. Money means financing for jihad. And that, boys and girls, means they can reach out a lot further than they ever have before. Do a little research on Eurabia. Basically, what they're talking about is the radical and rapid movement by Islam to take over Europe and use it to promote jihad through-out the world.

Islamic threat to Europe likened to Nazis
By Tony Blankley

THE WASHINGTON TIMES

September 12, 2005

First of three parts

The threat of the radical Islamists taking over Europe is every bit as great to the United States as was the threat of the Nazis taking over Europe in the 1940s.

We cannot afford to lose Europe. We cannot afford to see Europe transformed into a launching pad for Islamist jihad.

While we in the United States and Europe have vast resources for protecting ourselves, we have thought ourselves into a position of near impotence.

Beyond the growing number of Muslims committed to terrorism is the threat from the Islamic diaspora's growing cultural and religious assertiveness -- particularly in largely secular Europe, where Muslim cultural assimilation has not occurred.
Source (http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2005/09/12/World/Islamic.Threat.To.Europe.Likened.To.Nazis-981831.shtml)

[treehugger]

Copied from wilkepedia:
Rudolph has also confessed to the bombings of an abortion clinic in the Atlanta suburb of Sandy Springs on January 16, 1997, a gay and lesbian nightclub, the Otherside Lounge, in Atlanta on February 21, 1997, injuring five, and an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama on January 29, 1998, killing officer Robert Sanderson and critically injuring nurse Emily Lyons. Rudolph's bombs were made of dynamite surrounded by nails which acted as shrapnel.

He is said to have targeted the health clinic and office building because abortions were performed there, and targeted the Otherside Lounge because it was a predominantly lesbian nightclub.

It has been alleged that Rudolph is an adherent of the extremist group Christian Identity, a sect that holds that white Christians are God's chosen people, and that others will be condemned to Hell

Copied from USA today:

Druggists refuse to give out pill
By Charisse Jones, USA TODAY
For a year, Julee Lacey stopped in a CVS pharmacy near her home in a Fort Worth suburb to get refills of her birth-control pills. Then one day last March, the pharmacist refused to fill Lacey's prescription because she did not believe in birth control.

"I was shocked," says Lacey, 33, who was not able to get her prescription until the next day and missed taking one of her pills. "Their job is not to regulate what people take or do. It's just to fill the prescription that was ordered by my physician."

Some pharmacists, however, disagree and refuse on moral grounds to fill prescriptions for contraceptives. And states from Rhode Island to Washington have proposed laws that would protect such decisions.

Mississippi enacted a sweeping statute that went into effect in July that allows health care providers, including pharmacists, to not participate in procedures that go against their conscience. South Dakota and Arkansas already had laws that protect a pharmacist's right to refuse to dispense medicines. Ten other states considered similar bills this year.

The American Pharmacists Association, with 50,000 members, has a policy that says druggists can refuse to fill prescriptions if they object on moral grounds, but they must make arrangements so a patient can still get the pills. Yet some pharmacists have refused to hand the prescription to another druggist to fill.

In Madison, Wis., a pharmacist faces possible disciplinary action by the state pharmacy board for refusing to transfer a woman's prescription for birth-control pills to another druggist or to give the slip back to her. He would not refill it because of his religious views.

Some advocates for women's reproductive rights are worried that such actions by pharmacists and legislatures are gaining momentum.

The U.S. House of Representatives passed a provision in September that would block federal funds from local, state and federal authorities if they make health care workers perform, pay for or make referrals for abortions.

"We have always understood that the battles about abortion were just the tip of a larger ideological iceberg, and that it's really birth control that they're after also," says Gloria Feldt, president of Planned Parenthood Federation of America.

"The explosion in the number of legislative initiatives and the number of individuals who are just saying, 'We're not going to fill that prescription for you because we don't believe in it' is astonishing," she said.

Pharmacists have moved to the front of the debate because of such drugs as the "morning-after" pill, which is emergency contraception that can prevent fertilization if taken within 120 hours of unprotected intercourse.

While some pharmacists cite religious reasons for opposing birth control, others believe life begins with fertilization and see hormonal contraceptives, and the morning-after pill in particular, as capable of causing an abortion.

"I refuse to dispense a drug with a significant mechanism to stop human life," says Karen Brauer, president of the 1,500-member Pharmacists for Life International. Brauer was fired in 1996 after she refused to refill a prescription for birth-control pills at a Kmart in the Cincinnati suburb of Delhi Township.

Lacey, of North Richland Hills, Texas, filed a complaint with the Texas Board of Pharmacy after her prescription was refused in March. In February, another Texas pharmacist at an Eckerd drug store in Denton wouldn't give contraceptives to a woman who was said to be a rape victim.

In the Madison case, pharmacist Neil Noesen, 30, after refusing to refill a birth-control prescription, did not transfer it to another pharmacist or return it to the woman. She was able to get her prescription refilled two days later at the same pharmacy, but she missed a pill because of the delay.

She filed a complaint after the incident occurred in the summer of 2002 in Menomonie, Wis. Christopher Klein, spokesman for Wisconsin's Department of Regulation and Licensing, says the issue is that Noesen didn't transfer or return the prescription. A hearing was held in October. The most severe punishment would be revoking Noesen's pharmacist license, but Klein says that is unlikely.

Susan Winckler, spokeswoman and staff counsel for the American Pharmacists Association, says it is rare that pharmacists refuse to fill a prescription for moral reasons. She says it is even less common for a pharmacist to refuse to provide a referral.

"The reality is every one of those instances is one too many," Winckler says. "Our policy supports stepping away but not obstructing."

In the 1970s, because of abortion and sterilization, some states adopted refusal clauses to allow certain health care professionals to opt out of providing those services. The issue re-emerged in the 1990s, says Adam Sonfield of the Alan Guttmacher Institute, which researches reproductive issues.

Sonfield says medical workers, insurers and employers increasingly want the right to refuse certain services because of medical developments, such as the "morning-after" pill, embryonic stem-cell research and assisted suicide.

"The more health care items you have that people feel are controversial, some people are going to object and want to opt out of being a part of that," he says.

In Wisconsin, a petition drive is underway to revive a proposed law that would protect pharmacists who refuse to prescribe drugs they believe could cause an abortion or be used for assisted suicide.

"It just recognizes that pharmacists should not be forced to choose between their consciences and their livelihoods," says Matt Sande of Pro-Life Wisconsin. "They should not be compelled to become parties to abortion."

[LIBRA]

It has been alleged that Rudolph is an adherent of the extremist group Christian Identity, a sect that holds that white Christians are God's chosen people, and that others will be condemned to Hell


wow, so contradictory!! I cant believe people really believe and think this way, its insane.

And if my pharmacist wouldnt fill my prescription id be pissed, so pissed, how dare them! Again, insane people!!
people take things way to far, if its called radical they should back off ya know! Especially when it comes to religions.
I have never even heard those stories before about the pharmacists, im shocked.

[Dead Fan]

Your post about the founding of this country is incorrect in one area. The founding fathers who wrote the first laws of this country were not christian so how could the law be based on christian belief. Also the establishment clause of the first amendment says that the governmtent can not endorse any religious establishment so this means that any president who is making laws based on a christian belief alone is wrong and also equals freedom from religion. The Free Excersize clause on the other hand prohibits them from making a law that prohibits excercise of religion, there is your freedom of religion.

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

Your post about the founding of this country is incorrect in one area. The founding fathers who wrote the first laws of this country were not christian ....

'Scuse me?

Some quotes from the founding fathers....


George Washington


"And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion…Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles.." (1)

Noah Webster


"No truth is more evident to any mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people." (2)

Benjamin Rush


"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments... Without religion, I believe that learning does much mischief to the morals and principles of mankind." (3)

John Adams


"…it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand."

John Adams

"The highest story of the American Revolution is this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

President George Washington, September 17th, 1796

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible"

His Prayer At Valley Forge "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prorate myself before Thee."

"Bless O Lord the whole race of mankind, and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy Son, Jesus. "Of all dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens."

"To the distinguished character of a Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian."

Patrick Henry

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations."

Thomas Jefferson
"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart."

John Quincy Adams
"It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God."

John Jay, 1777 The first Chief Justice of the United States

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and the interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

Have I missed something??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Dead Fan]

OK proved me and my teacher wrong. I was told they were deist. I know Franklin was and Im not exactly sure if I spelled that right?

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

OK proved me and my teacher wrong. I was told they were deist. I know Franklin was and Im not exactly sure if I spelled that right?

Did you like, you know... read what I posted?

You were told?? So did you actually read anything about it on your own? The only things I could find about that was with Jefferson, and even that said very little that shows any kind of ties to being deist. Even if he did, why, if you think God abandoned everything, would people feel the need to do his bidding? :confused:

[PEACE FROG]

It is so hard to talk to you Mr. Skinny White Asshole. What is it you want? Okay youre right, I'm wrong. Bush is an awesome Pres. He had every right to kill those brown foreign bastards, how dare they be so.... foreign. And, and...BROWN. And I'm am soooo glad also that he is such a devout man of faith. For me he has answered the question,"Who would Jesus bomb?" The damn ARABS thats who. So longhairedskinnywhiteboy, why ya here?

[unclejoe]

deadfan,
i believe what lhswb has shown is that the founding fathers
belief in the moral and ethical principles of the Teacher's words
form a compatible basis for a free and open form of government.
also, keep mind their timeframe/era.
being christian wasn't the rabid narrow mindedness
of present day nitwits mangling the intent of the Teacher's philosophy.
today's "christian leaders" are doing to the Teacher's words
what the terrorists are doing to the basic tenets of the Quoran.
they are using it to further their own agendas.
unclejoe

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

It is so hard to talk to you Mr. Skinny White Asshole. What is it you want? Okay youre right, I'm wrong. Bush is an awesome Pres. He had every right to kill those brown foreign bastards, how dare they be so.... foreign. And, and...BROWN. And I'm am soooo glad also that he is such a devout man of faith. For me he has answered the question,"Who would Jesus bomb?" The damn ARABS thats who. So longhairedskinnywhiteboy, why ya here?

Perhaps if you came to the table with something besides stupidity, ignorance and blindness we could have a debate. But since all you can do is shout impolitic slurs and inapt drivel, I am left to continue rudely smacking you around with little doses of reality until you either stop replying to my threads, or start being objective and intelligent.

Unclejoe gets it.

[Longhairedskinnywhiteboy]

BTW, Captain Stupid...


He had every right to kill those brown foreign bastards, how dare they be so.... foreign. And, and...BROWN.

I suppose you believe shrub blew up the levy in nawlins to kill black people too.

See, this is exactally what I'm talking about. You sprew this crap that you know isn't true instead of stating what you really feel/believe. It makes you look very incompetent.

Do you really know why you hate bush? If so, tell me. If not, do yourself a favor and quit making yourself look like a complete idiot by posting without any cognative thought and zero substance.

[Dead Fan]

By the teacher you mean Jesus right? If so then I get everything you were trying to say.

[unclejoe]

you got it, dead fan. :)

over the years, successive translations of the new testament have inadvertently corrupted the earliest editions.
an associate of mine had been in seminary had the chance to study
with Vatican scholars who had access to very early and fragile copies.
he told me that the title 'master' used by the early writers,
is more properly translated as 'sensei' or 'teacher'.
similarly, 'disciple' ~ 'student'.

[PEACE FROG]

I never said Bush blew up a levy?!? How can you debate me on why I don't like something or someone? You dont debate anyway, you just tell people they are stupid and that you are smart. You haven't offered any original thoughts, you cut and paste crap from some Clearchannel wannabes' You wanna debate? Okay. I dont believe this war can solve anything. I don't think these people are better off now that they have been "liberated" I don't think that we should look at other cultures as "Broken versions of ourselves". I don't think people can really change until the condition of their heart is addressed. I think we need to truly love each other and that, Mr. Asshole, cannot be done at gun point. Now why dont you exercise some self control and show me some of those brains you are so proud of. Dont post someone else's shit. Am I really off base? Am I so wrong? Oh, and why are you here?

[treehugger]

Hey froggie? I've had it on ignore for a while and that way I can only see what it writes if I choose to...the ignore button is a wonderful thing my friend. :)

One thing about beating your head against a wall...you get a headache.

Kath

[unclejoe]

..and it feels ever so much better when you stop.. :)

[PEACE FROG]

Thanks Joe, Kath. ;)

[forrest]

Wow, are you blind AND retarded?

Here's a link to a site that has the statistics on civilian casualties.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/

Something to note about the site:



Note that they said 'resulting directly from military action by the USA'. When you read the "TARGET" and "WEAPON" columns, you will see that the bulk of those deaths WERE NOT CAUSED BY US FORCES, they were caused by the terrorists, (freedom fighters as you would call them)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/FukNRekd/Other/targets.jpg

The next BS line you'll try to use is that if the US wasn't there, the casualties wouldn't have happened.

Yes. They would have. Even worse.

Read below from this (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=3889&R=C495A28)site.

I've highlighted some key points for you so you don't have to read the whole thing if you don't want to, but you should.



I'm out of space, continued on next post...

But, But, But?????????? (http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/no-saddam-qaeda.htm)

Tell Them, forget it they know Bush lied! (www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html)

[morningsunshine]

Perhaps if you came to the table with something besides stupidity, ignorance and blindness we could have a debate. But since all you can do is shout impolitic slurs and inapt drivel, I am left to continue rudely smacking you around with little doses of reality until you either stop replying to my threads, or start being objective and intelligent.

Unclejoe gets it.
Funny how you think everyone else is stupid...
But yet the overwhelming majority seems to dislike your existance?
Yet again, you resort to name calling instead of facts.
Cant' we sign a petition or something and get this jerk OUT of here?

[forrest]

lol... This made my day. I keep forgetting that Iraq was nothing but a country full of terrorists beofre our freedom fighters blew the hell out of it... :D Seriously dude, aren't there plenty of other forums where pro-war people can join in a big circle jerk while they speak in circles about terrorists? Have you noticed you're the only one here who is making an ass of himself?

Mama always said... (structuredblogging.org/wordpress/?p=15)
:aetsch013

[forrest]

How George Bush Admitted His War Crimes
by Richard W. Behan


It was brilliantly deceptive, trumping even his orchestrated dishonesty in leading us to war.

Buried in the 94 pages of the Military Commissions Act of 2006-the "detainee act" or the "torture bill"-the Bush Administration tacitly admits it has committed war crimes.

There is no question war crimes have been committed. Corporal Charles Graner, Private First Class Lyndie England, and several of their teammates are serving time, for mistreating prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad.

At the time these soldiers were tried and sentenced many people felt the culpability must extend above the ranks of enlisted personnel, up some distance into the chain-of-command, perhaps to the top. Many still do.

There are two pairs of dots to be connected. One is a pair of small dots, the other two are huge.

On December 28, 2001, a memo to President Bush from his Office of Legal Counsel made two claims: the US court system had no jurisdiction regarding the detainees at Guantanamo, and the Geneva Conventions did not apply to them.

Acting on this advice, on February 7, 2002 President Bush suspended Common Article 3 of those conventions-which, among other things, prohibits torture. Two years later, thanks to CBS' 60 Minutes and the New Yorker magazine, the prisoner abuses at Abu Ghraib came to light. Connect those dots. These are the small ones.

Subsequent lawsuits addressing the detainee issue were considered and resolved by the Supreme Court. Rasul v. Bush found the US courts did have jurisdiction over the detainees. Hamdi v. Rumsfeld said detainees have a right to contest their detention: they are entitled to habeas corpus protections. Hamdan v. Rumsfeld tested the military tribunals President Bush created to bring the detainees to justice. The Supreme Court found the tribunals in violation of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, and their existence to be illegal, absent a basis in federal statute. The decision was handed down June 29, 2006.

Hamdan v. Rumsfeld put on display the Bush Administration's guilt in committing war crimes. This is one of the huge dots. It will be connected to another one shortly.

The Bush Administration wasted no time drafting a law to legalize the military "commissions," as they came to be called. Senators McCain, Warner, and Graham initially and vigorously opposed it-and then caved in.

A "compromise" was worked out in Vice President Cheney's office. Trivial tweaks.

The law signed by the President precludes federal courts from any jurisdiction whatsoever, in direct contradiction to the Supreme Court's finding. It denies habeas corpus protections, also in direct contradiction.

And it prohibits explicitly the detainees from claiming rights under the Geneva Conventions. Here is the language that does so:

No person may invoke the Geneva Conventions, or any protocols thereto, in any habeas or civil action or proceeding to which the United States, or a current or former officer, employee, member of the Armed Services, or other agent of the United States, is a party, as a source of rights in any court of the United States or its States or territories.

This means that no detainee can bring suit for any violation of the Geneva Conventions, and this is the other huge dot. The Bush Administration already stands accused by the Supreme Court of violating Common Article 3, but the Administration wrote a law, and bulldozed it through a compliant Congress, to render prosecution impossible.

This also means the US simply is not bound by the Geneva Conventions. If detainees cannot claim rights under them the Conventions are moot.

The Military Commissions Act of 2006 is retroactive. It shall ".take effect as of November 26, 1997, as if enacted.[on that date]." Nothing the Bush Administration has done can be called into question.

Why would the Bush people write these several requirements into a law? Only if they are guilty of committing war crimes and know they will face prosecution. Though ingeniously obscured, this is a de facto admission of guilt.

The Military Commissions Act of 2006 is mostly smokescreen. The law's primary purpose is to immunize the Bush Administration, which explains the Administration's frantic anxiety to have it passed. The thrust of the bill, relating to detainee trials, is hardly a matter of top priority: the detainees have been languishing for years. Elizabeth Holtzman saw through the smokescreen in a recent essay in the Chicago Sun-Times, "Bush Seeks Immunity for Violating War Crimes Act." Not many other commentators have noticed.

This new law shields the Bush Administration from their mistreatment of prisoners, but that issue is truly a marginal one. Still to be confronted is the illegality of the Iraq war writ large: sold to the American people on conscious lies and prosecuted at horrific expense in human lives and treasure. Crimes against humanity are involved here.

The Military Commissions Act was created by desperate people terrified of prosecution. Imagine George W. Bush taking the stand in The Hague, following in the footsteps of Slobodan Milosevic. Imagine Richard Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Condoleezza Rice imprisoned. Imagine.
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0930-22.htm

[PEACE FROG]

See..... I was Right!;)

[LIBRA]

As always ;)


I reread this entire thread, we all had potty mouths then. And it made me laugh, tryin to keep the peace was so confusing,lol

[PEACE FROG]

I know ,right? You were the cool head though. This dude was driving me nuts. And dang wasn't there some really kynd folks here that we've kinda forgotten about. Those were the days. I think Unkle was providing safe haven at P.D. and not posting much, otherwise, I'm sure he would have offered his 2 cents.;)

[forrest]

I know ,right? You were the cool head though. This dude was driving me nuts. And dang wasn't there some really kynd folks here that we've kinda forgotten about. Those were the days. I think Unkle was providing safe haven at P.D. and not posting much, otherwise, I'm sure he would have offered his 2 cents.;)

I get called an "ignorant asshole" by you and get an 8 day ban, bullshit then talking to the Admin. they can't see the thread because you deleted it!

Oh and I got this! :o

You have been banned for the following reason:
No reason was specified.
Date the ban will be lifted: 11-23-2008, 01:00 AM

8 days!

So I ask that..........

Its all good just please if your going to leave again pm me and I'll stay off while your gone!

Then I got this!

Hippie Staff has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

So will you delete this too?

[PEACE FROG]

I'm sorry Forrest. Did you still want to fight with me? I thought that was done. I will let Libra deal with you in the future and try my best to be courteous to you. You are a good contributor here and I value what you bring to the table. So chill dude.:hb:

[LIBRA]

Ya chill. The thread was deleted because other members didnt need to be involved, everyone who needed to read it, read it. We all decided that maybe you needed a break, not just Peacefrog. So chill out, it got heated now its over, its time to move on. I would have deleted the thread too.

I really dont want to see anymore threads like this, if you have something to say please pm me or any other mod, replying to a thread that does not pertain to the issue is just, well asking for trouble.

And Meg gets ALOT of pm's, you can always email her if need be.

[Adam Blanchard]

hahaha I wonder if she has gotten any from me offending someone on the board yet. Altho if I do ever offend someone I would rather they come to me about it than go to an admin and tell them so I end up getting repremanded and not quite knowing why.

[LIBRA]

I cant speak for everyone but I know if I am offended I would let the person know, like an adult. And Adam, you in no way offended me about the vegetarian stuff, I didnt mean to come off pissy but well it pisses me off :D But that dont mean Im mad atcha ;)

[Adam Blanchard]

that's cool I'm probaly going to take a break from the boards anyway. That way I won't get kicked off of them.

[LIBRA]

Ya, cause we go around banning people just for fun.