So, does anyone garden?

[StellaBlue]

Anyone? How are yours doing?

[LIBRA]

I have a few things planted. Brocolli, brussel sprouts, peppers, strawberrys, cucumbers and pumpkins. Tomatoes too, and some herbs. Sage, lemon grass, basil, thyme.

My brocoli, flowered and then grew big stalky things? Doesnt look like a head of broc at all? I dont know what happened?

Everything else is doin good. Except japanese beetles are killing alot, I just got some of those bag things to put up. I hate those things.

How bout you?

I wanted a bigger garden but I didnt have the time and by the time I did it was to late to start anything else, next year though!!

[toman]

I have some herbs on my windowsill, but seeing as I live in an ultra-urban environment, my true gardening is limited to whatever I can convince my mother to let me plant in her back yard and then water for me... :D That consists of more herbs... Basil, oregano, thyme, sage, mint... basically just stuff that takes very little mainainence and that I use on a regular basis. There's also a little garlic and a few onions and potatoes, but due to the rather poor soil in the area those don't do too well. They're a little fun though anyway. Ultimately I hope to have a bit of land that's farmable, and grow a nice garden along with some goats and rabbits and maybe a cow or two to both feed myself and my dogs and augment my income, but that's definately a ways in the future, and most likely not in this country. :cheers: :

[Reason]

I grew up on a farm; my father and grandfather (and great-grandfather) were fruit farmers. They farmed everything from peaches to alfalfa to rhubarb to apples.

I certainly don't farm on that scale, but I do have a small garden on my property. Growing organic produce for yourself and your family is great, if that's what you want to do; however, organic farming as the mainstay of humanity's consumables is not a good idea, in my opinion.

[toman]

Care to elaborate on why not organic? Is there some benefit to chemicals that I'm not aware of, other than increased yeilds and more money? :cheers:

[Reason]

Since where I live, organic produce is nearly twice as expensive -- and not just because of low yields. The organic markets are the uppity/trendy markets. They charge more for everything, not just produce.

The word "chemical" has almost become synonymous with "evil." Some chemicals are harmful, sure. But not all of them. Interestingly enough, if a pesticide isn't applied to a plant from an outside source (like spraying), a plant will produce its own pesticide to help combat certain kinds of insects. However, the plant isn't like a scientist; it doesn't have the ability to differentiate between what harms an insect and what harms a human being. So applying a pesticide that's safe for humans (but not for a particular insect) helps the crop AND the consumer. Plants also don't have brains, and can't distinguish between a nitrogen molecule from a synthetic fertilizer, and a nitrogen molecule from the soil. So if you aren't replentishing the nitrogen (and other compounds) that the plants take from the soil, pretty soon, the soil becomes less and less fertile, producing smaller crop yields and weaker individual plants.

Additionally, there's a general idea I've noticed that farmers don't care about the land, the water tables, the soil's nutrients, etc. Traditional farmers just rape the planet -- like clear-cutting -- scouring their crops with the most toxic substances available to make a quick buck. This is not true. As any real farmer knows, if you ruin the land, you ruin your livlihood. Your business goes under and your children go hungry. It's like a delivery company: they take care of their delivery trucks, because that's how they stay in business. They don't pour in nitro instead of unleaded gasoline and hope for the best. So farmers aren't going to do anything that would jeapordize their means of making a living. (Sure, there are stupid farmers and other exceptions to this rule, but in general, farmers aren't clear-cutters.)

There's also a method of farming called "no-till farming," which has the same benefits as organic farming (mainly allowing the soil to hold more moisture, for less use/waste of water during irrigation). Farming is just like any other industry; farmers look for ways to produce a better product with the least impact to the land (since that in and of itself raises their profits and ensures they'll be in business for a longer time). If you use smart farming practices, there's no need to be afraid of the word "chemical" or resort to outdated farming practices from pre 1800's.

[toman]

While that may all be true, is there a downside to growing organic? If we balance our use of the environment, shouldn't we be able to grow food without having to add artificial components to it? And if people are willing to pay more money for organic food, doesn't that also justify the added cost of growing it? Personally, I feel that if I can grow enough food to mostly feed myself and have some left over to augment my income, I have no need to manipulate nature in order to produce more product. Regardless of whether chemicals are harmless to me or my environment, they're simply not neccessary unless I'm in it just to make money.

[Reason]

IMO, the downsides to organic are limited to farms that supply food for people who don't grow their own. If you can grow enough food for yourself and your family, organically, that's great (as long as you continue to replentish the soil with the nutrients the plants take from it). It's only organic farming on a large-scale that makes no sense, in my opinion.

There's a reason organic produce costs more money: lower yields. That means of course that in order for a farmer to pay his rent and make the same profit he was making from traditional farming, he has to charge more per product. That's great, too, and as long as the consumer can afford to pay that price, everyone is happy. However, that isn't always the case. Obesity has now surpassed starvation as a cause of death on this planet, and the reason behind that is that people can only afford to spend so much $$ on food. If I only have 35 cents, I can't buy an organic apple, but I CAN buy a Little Debbie Snack. The cost of organic food puts it out of the market range of people who don't have a nice middle-class income. Even if poor people wanted to eat organically, they simply can't afford it. And that's just in the US. Second- and third-world countries don't stand a chance; they're doing what they can to produce enough food to live on, and unfortunately they don't have things like food stamps or government farm subsidies to help out.

Organic farming is great on a small scale, in affluent areas that can afford to do it. It's environmentally responsible, on a small scale. But on a large scale, it's not a solution to feeding the hungry of the world. It's also just not necessary. There are environmentally responsible ways to farm that fall into the non-organic category that are safe, produce a healthy product in a good quantity, and don't escalate the price out of the range of the poor.

The other downside is that many organic farmers fertilize with manure. Manure is a GREAT fertilizer, because it's rich in nutrients. I use manure on my flowers, my grasses, and anything in my yard that's NOT edible. Once you put manure on an edible plant, you run the risk of contracting all the bacteria that was in the manure. Eating manure has a high risk of dysentery (not sure how to spell that one!) and e. coli. So if you use manure, please make sure to use a fruit/vegetable soap and a gentle scrub brush to help reduce contracting those things. I read somewhere that organic produce has an 80% higher rate of e. coli than non-organic. Not sure if that statistic is true or not, but my brother had dysentery and actually almost died from it (not from an organic-related incident, but it wasn't a pretty sickness to deal with).

I'm not anti-organic... I just think there are better, healthier and more environmentally responsible ways to farm on a large scale that have the benefits of organic without the drawbacks.

[Reason]

Another drawback in association with lower yields is that to keep your yields the SAME as they were for traditional farming methods, you have to grow more plants. (There's about a 20% difference in yield here -- and I'm also still talking about large-scale farming.) So if I need to grow more plants, I need more land to put the plants on. So an organic farm, to keep up with production yields, has to use more land for farming than a traditional farm. And unfortunately, this land doesn't come from tearing down a Wal Mart. It comes from annexing forest land/open space.

Any time you can grow more food in a smaller area, leaving more forestry undisturbed, I think that's a good thing.

Okay... my soap box session is over. ;)

[LIBRA]

Great soap box, Reason, all your points were well taken by me.

I live in a very rural area, with many many farmers. They work hard and 24 7, no breaks. The land is everything to them. Most of which are not " organic" but they also dont use harmful chemicals, only ones they need to have what land they do have thrive.

[toman]

So I guess the problem then is basically the fact that we have to have large scale farming in order to feed ourselves. Perhaps if we had the majority of the population growing on a small scale in order to feed themselves and maybe a neighbor, we could get away with maintaining our environment in a natural manner.

[Reason]

You're probably right. If everyone had a small-scale organic farm, all those large-scale issues I yapped about wouldn't be issues at all. But like Libra said, farming is a 24/7 job, so if everyone was busy farming, nothing else would get done.

There's definitely a balance to be struck, but why, when large-scale farms can exist peacefully with the environment already?

[toman]

I suppose you're right. In this culture, if large scale farms can in reallity co-exist with the environment and produce the food we need, than there's nothing wrong with that. I guess my problem is that even if we think we know that what we're doing isn't hurting us in reallity, we're nothing but stupid animals. We really know nothing, and we've made huge mistake in the past. Who knows if we know anything?

[LIBRA]

I suppose you're right. In this culture, if large scale farms can in reallity co-exist with the environment and produce the food we need, than there's nothing wrong with that. I guess my problem is that even if we think we know that what we're doing isn't hurting us in reallity, we're nothing but stupid animals. We really know nothing, and we've made huge mistake in the past. Who knows if we know anything?


Thats how I feel too. It like you think you know whats going on then you find out a whole nother situation. Its hard to tell what is good or bad when it changes all the time.

Large factory farms only care about how much they yield and how fast, this is one thing that should stop, now.
Chickens should not be fully mature chickens in a matter of weeks, this is not right. That I do know.
Plants take time to grow and produce and are not supposed to last forever. Messing with the natural way of growing and living is not right, thats another thing I do know. But everything is about more more more, lasting longer and longer. Nothin is simple anymore.

I say Simplify!!

[Reason]

But Libra, by planting a seed in the first place, you're messing with nature. By taking a plot of land and growing plants on it that wouldn't be growing there in the first place, you're technically doing someing "unnatural." So if you're going to do something "unnatural," the best way to deal with it (in my opinion) is to maximize the good that comes out of it — by maximizing the benefit to humanity.

Farms do care about how much yeild and how fast — because of demand for product. People need to eat. I guarantee you small farms in third world countries where food is scarce care WAY more about how much yeild and how fast than farms in the US. The whole point of growing food is about product yeild and efficiency. That's what farming IS.

[toman]

hmmm. Interesting. I like where this thread is going. Humans manipulating the breeding and growth of plants is inherently unnatural. Perhaps all farming and raising of food is ultimately detrimental to our relationship with the earth; in that case, what we're probably looking at is over-population as the ultimate problem. Perhaps genocide is the answer?

[aprilawz]

I can only say that I'm shocked to see this on an organic gardening board...this is the prepackaged "organic-bad! Chemical - good!" argument of every ag chemical company out there. Why are you being sold on this?

So, let me see if I understand...suddenly pesticides are a good thing??? lol!! Manure is bad for produce?? Well I'll be damned, how did we evolve as a species without Mansanto in our lives?

I've lived all of my life in farming communities...the soil is dead from years of poor farming practices, over fertilization, and pesticides killing the natural fauna in the soil. The streams are polluted with eroded silt and chemical runoff from the fields. If conventional farming is so good for the soil and the world, tell me, why is there still unchecked starvation in the world, while conventional farmers are being paid to till under crops? World hunger is not an ag issue, it's a political issue.

Are you seriously saying that the natural defenses of a healthy plant developed over a milennia are no better, or even worse that what us oh-so-wise people are pouring on? I've worked in the neurology field for years, I've seen what these "safe pesticides" to do people, and oncologists in ag areas will tell you even more. No till? Do any of you know what that entails? Instead of tilling to control weeds, they spray the crap out of the fields to kill weeds. So, do you choose erosion or more chemical polutants in our soil and water??

Yes, orgainic food is more labor intensive, and therefore, expensive. Organic farmers are not getting rich, they are working year round, not just at seeding, harvest and spraying time. There are no government welfare programs for them, just big agribusiness gets that. It is also well known that organically produced food is far higher in nutritional values that sprayed vegetables grown in dead soil.

Seriously, people, look in the mirror. Are you seriously that naive? I come to an "Organic Gardening" board, and all I see is a group of people allowing themselves to soothed into thinking that "better living through chemicals" is not such a bad idea...ugh! What next? GMOs are the way to go? WAKE UP!

[aprilawz]

But Libra, by planting a seed in the first place, you're messing with nature. By taking a plot of land and growing plants on it that wouldn't be growing there in the first place, you're technically doing someing "unnatural." So if you're going to do something "unnatural," the best way to deal with it (in my opinion) is to maximize the good that comes out of it — by maximizing the benefit to humanity.

That is the most ridiculous statement I've heard in years. Why do you think seed are found in fruits and vegetables that animals, including ourselves, have evolved to consume? Why do they have hard seedcoats to protect them from the digestive tracts of animals? Animals eat them, digest the food, and expel the seeds far from the original plant, and by that action, they spread the particular plant variety, better insuring its chance for survival. Plants do not sow themselves, they evolved in a way that would allow animals to do that for them.

Farms do care about how much yeild and how fast — because of demand for product. People need to eat. I guarantee you small farms in third world countries where food is scarce care WAY more about how much yeild and how fast than farms in the US. The whole point of growing food is about product yeild and efficiency. That's what farming IS.

Demand? Then explain to me, please, why grain prices are tanking. Why are so many small family farms going out of business? Since the begining of widespread chemical use, yeilds have gone up (albiet - of a lower quality grain), and prices have plummeted. Supply has far surpassed demand, yet for some reason, they just keep on pushing for more, more, more. Farmers are not feeding the world, international politics wouldn't allow it, for starters. They are putting themselves out of house and home by following poor business practices - pumping out way more chemically laden, genetically mutated grain and produce than demand would call for. This is why small farmers are loosing everything, and large, corporate entities are sucking up all the land. Do not even think that I am so blind that I'd believe that Cargill give a rats ass about proper land management and proper stewardship. Monsanto does not care about feeding the world, they care about profits. Tell me, is this what farming is all about?

Seriously, are you an agribusiness lobbyist?

[LIBRA]

hmmm. Interesting. I like where this thread is going. Humans manipulating the breeding and growth of plants is inherently unnatural. Perhaps all farming and raising of food is ultimately detrimental to our relationship with the earth; in that case, what we're probably looking at is over-population as the ultimate problem. Perhaps genocide is the answer?


See the pic thread,lol

Shocker!!!!

Your pic didnt shock me but your words do!!!!

[toman]

^^^ Your PM box is full, might want to do a little housekeeping. ;)

[LIBRA]

^^^ Your PM box is full, might want to do a little housekeeping. ;)


I hate cleaning! But I did :)

[toman]

Neat freak. :p

[LIBRA]

Neat freak. :p


Ya know, lately I kinda have been,lol

Actually I have been an organizing freak!!!


Well at least im not just A freak so :aetsch013

:p