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Hippie Staff
03-07-2008, 04:42 PM
California doesn't have better issues to deal with? CA is crunched for funding, public schools have no money, where are they going to put the 166,000 children?


Homeschoolers' setback sends shock waves through state


A California appeals court ruling clamping down on homeschooling by parents without teaching credentials sent shock waves across the state this week, leaving an estimated 166,000 children as possible truants and their parents at risk of prosecution.
The homeschooling movement never saw the case coming.

"At first, there was a sense of, 'No way,' " said homeschool parent Loren Mavromati, a resident of Redondo Beach (Los Angeles County) who is active with a homeschool association. "Then there was a little bit of fear. I think it has moved now into indignation."

The ruling arose from a child welfare dispute between the Los Angeles County Department of Children and Family Services and Philip and Mary Long of Lynwood, who have been homeschooling their eight children. Mary Long is their teacher, but holds no teaching credential.

The parents said they also enrolled their children in Sunland Christian School, a private religious academy in Sylmar (Los Angeles County), which considers the Long children part of its independent study program and visits the home about four times a year.

The Second District Court of Appeal ruled that California law requires parents to send their children to full-time public or private schools or have them taught by credentialed tutors at home.

Some homeschoolers are affiliated with private or charter schools, like the Longs, but others fly under the radar completely. Many homeschooling families avoid truancy laws by registering with the state as a private school and then enroll only their own children.

Yet the appeals court said state law has been clear since at least 1953, when another appellate court rejected a challenge by homeschooling parents to California's compulsory education statutes. Those statutes require children ages 6 to 18 to attend a full-time day school, either public or private, or to be instructed by a tutor who holds a state credential for the child's grade level.

"California courts have held that ... parents do not have a constitutional right to homeschool their children," Justice H. Walter Croskey said in the 3-0 ruling issued on Feb. 28. "Parents have a legal duty to see to their children's schooling under the provisions of these laws."

Parents can be criminally prosecuted for failing to comply, Croskey said.

"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.

Union pleased with ruling

The ruling was applauded by a director for the state's largest teachers union.

"We're happy," said Lloyd Porter, who is on the California Teachers Association board of directors. "We always think students should be taught by credentialed teachers, no matter what the setting."

A spokesman for the state Department of Education said the agency is reviewing the decision to determine its impact on current policies and procedures. State Superintendent of Public Instruction Jack O'Connell issued a statement saying he supports "parental choice when it comes to homeschooling."

Brad Dacus, president of the Pacific Justice Institute, which agreed earlier this week to represent Sunland Christian School and legally advise the Long family on a likely appeal to the state Supreme Court, said the appellate court ruling has set a precedent that can now be used to go after homeschoolers. "With this case law, anyone in California who is homeschooling without a teaching credential is subject to prosecution for truancy violation, which could require community service, heavy fines and possibly removal of their children under allegations of educational neglect," Dacus said.

Parents say they choose homeschooling for a variety of reasons, from religious beliefs to disillusionment with the local public schools.

Homeschooling parent Debbie Schwarzer of Los Altos said she's ready for a fight.

Schwarzer runs Oak Hill Academy out of her Santa Clara County home. It is a state-registered private school with two students, she said, noting they are her own children, ages 10 and 12. She does not have a teaching credential, but she does have a law degree.

"I'm kind of hoping some truancy officer shows up on my doorstep," she said. "I'm ready. I have damn good arguments."

She opted to teach her children at home to better meet their needs.

The ruling, Schwarzer said, "stinks."

Began as child welfare case

The Long family legal battle didn't start out as a test case on the validity of homeschooling. It was a child welfare case.

A juvenile court judge looking into one child's complaint of mistreatment by Philip Long found that the children were being poorly educated but refused to order two of the children, ages 7 and 9, to be enrolled in a full-time school. He said parents in California have a right to educate their children at home.

The appeals court told the juvenile court judge to require the parents to comply with the law by enrolling their children in a school, but excluded the Sunland Christian School from enrolling the children because that institution "was willing to participate in the deprivation of the children's right to a legal education."

The decision could also affect other kinds of homeschooled children, including those enrolled in independent study or distance learning through public charter schools - a setup similar to the one the Longs have, Dacus said.

Charter school advocates disagreed, saying Thursday that charter schools are public and are required to employ only credentialed teachers to supervise students - whether in class or through independent study.

Ruling will apply statewide

Michael Smith, president of the Home School Legal Defense Association, said the ruling would effectively ban homeschooling in the state.

"California is now on the path to being the only state to deny the vast majority of homeschooling parents their fundamental right to teach their own children at home," he said in a statement.

But Leslie Heimov, executive director of the Children's Law Center of Los Angeles, which represented the Longs' two children in the case, said the ruling did not change the law.

"They just affirmed that the current California law, which has been unchanged since the last time it was ruled on in the 1950s, is that children have to be educated in a public school, an accredited private school, or with an accredited tutor," she said. "If they want to send them to a private Christian school, they can, but they have to actually go to the school and be taught by teachers."

Heimov said her organization's chief concern was not the quality of the children's education, but their "being in a place daily where they would be observed by people who had a duty to ensure their ongoing safety."

NCW_Woodnymph
03-09-2008, 10:04 PM
This made me so mad that I couldn't finish reading it. (I'll have to go back to it later). :mad: :65:

I was home-schooled until 8th grade by my mother who had no teaching credentials and, for that matter, didn't even get good grades in high school. When I started public school I was way ahead of the majority of the kids in my class. Studies show that this is not a fluke either. The majority of home-schooled children test higher than children their age that attend public school, often by more than a year. It doesn't require a college degree to teach out of a text book. What is really important to learning is having someone who is willing to take the one on one time that children need and teach them in the way that they learn best. I have every intention of home-schooling my children until they start high-school. Luckily we live in Wa. which is relatively friendly toward home-schooling. :)

:hippie:

PEACE FROG
03-10-2008, 06:05 AM
It's the dough. I think a Calif school gets like six grand per kid from the government. I know some homeschool families, very cool folk who don't care for the public school influence on thier children. The kids seem bright, healthy and well adjusted. There's a family that attend the same dojo I do, hippie vibe, living off grid in the sticks. They come into town for karate, the whole family trains. It's their P.E. and socialization, how cool is that?

LIBRA
03-10-2008, 06:44 AM
Thats nuts. Ca is the last state I would think could ever try to pull this crap. How much control does the government need? Man, that really does suck.

I know plenty of homeschooled kids, they are super smart!! Kris wants me to homeschool him so bad, but being the bread winner its not an option.

Ed, that is cool! Kids do need interaction with other kids for sure, parents too!!

Graehstone
03-10-2008, 06:53 AM
How much control does the government need?
Lol that's a rhetorical question right? How better to brainwash patriotic fodder for your wars than when you have them all in one room.
:confused:

oceanchild78307
03-10-2008, 07:07 AM
Lol that's a rhetorical question right? How better to brainwash patriotic fodder for your wars than when you have them all in one room.
:confused:



That is so true!!!

NCW_Woodnymph
03-10-2008, 06:13 PM
I'm glad to know that not everyone thinks homeschoolers are nuts. :) It doesn't make the least bit of sense to me. Why pack more kids into schools that are notoriously over crowded?! I can completely get behind manditory testing to be sure that children are receiving a proper education but requiring teaching credentials is just wrong.

:hippie:

Buffalo Head '75
03-12-2008, 09:33 AM
normally liberals favor public education arguing that if kids aren't exposed to certain social values that it hinders society as a whole and normally conservatives (usually the creationism people) are in favor of home-schooling. That is a pretty broad statement but the point being that California turning that ruling is not actually odd at all.

I am torn on this. On one hand, I want children exposed to social values and I do not believe parents in this country by and large do a good job of that. At the same time, I do believe parents have some rights.

so Buff, what is your overall opinion?

I vote in favor of the Californian ruling. Children need a centralized education so that they are exposed to the social values they need in order to mantian and progress our society.

They need to be exposed to gay marriage, equal rights, sex education, etc. etc.

With homeschooling there is no way to insure that the child will be taught those values which I feel are intrinsic to us mantaining and progressing an orderly society that values equality.

puppylove
03-12-2008, 03:20 PM
I homeschool and i love it!

Christine
03-12-2008, 08:13 PM
Lol that's a rhetorical question right? How better to brainwash patriotic fodder for your wars than when you have them all in one room.
:confused:

Agreed.
Not only that, but putting more children in public schools will make the children more materialistic on average due to peer pressure. Thus boosting the economy.

poppy
03-21-2008, 08:15 PM
Californias schools already test among the lowest in the country....and homeschooled children test higher than public schooled kids....It is absolutely about the "dough" as peacefrog put it.

I think It will cause people to move from california so they can retain some of their rights. it can take years to be certified. Buffalo you yuppie!

For all those teepee livin hippies out there who think, making their child salute the flag and forcing valentines day down their throat every year isn't ok. (breeding commercialism and patriotic principles)

there are other ways to achieve social structure....such as taking ballet or soccer, violin, surfing....eco courses in groups, hey there's a concept, extra curricular curriculum in which group activites are involved. This way the parent is also involved....(socializing)

has anyone ever read, lies my teacher told me. we as parents have little involvement in what is taught at public schools, and what kind of peers are around our children at school. With the state of our society today, and the over medicating of children, I do not find it acceptable for them to strip our rights as parents.

We should be able to raise our children the way we would choose....providing we are not giving them guns and telling them to patty hurst the place....BULL SHIT!!!!! what they are doing is Pure B.S.

they do not pay the teachers enough, there are too many kids in the classroom as it is, and they are just plain.....BULL SHIT!

Somewhat over dramatized but very passionate....and sincere

StellaBlue
03-22-2008, 05:26 AM
I'm torn on this issue. As a teacher in a public school, I get a little defensive when people start talking about the poor education kids receive in public schools. And as a parent and a teacher, I get a little mixed up. Of course, homeschooling can be a great thing, but it can also be a terrible thing. A student at my school was recently pulled out by his parents because the parents were unhappy about a few discipline issues that had arisen. They will keep him home now. When the parents came to school to pick up the student's things, they had to be escorted by a police officer because the father wouldn't stop screaming a cussing, and the police thought maybe he would do something stupid at the school. These are the same parents that don't show up to parent/teacher conferences, the same parents who expect their young kids to get themselves out of bed in the morning, dressed, eat breakfast, and off to school on time, with NO parent support. And now these parents are going to homeschool?!?! Therein lies my problem. Homeschooling can be a great thing, or it could be a terrible thing. I don't have the answers, all I have are questions...

Graehstone
03-22-2008, 05:58 AM
I'm torn on this issue. As a teacher in a public school, I get a little defensive when people start talking about the poor education kids receive in public schools. And as a parent and a teacher, I get a little mixed up. Of course, homeschooling can be a great thing, but it can also be a terrible thing. A student at my school was recently pulled out by his parents because the parents were unhappy about a few discipline issues that had arisen. They will keep him home now. When the parents came to school to pick up the student's things, they had to be escorted by a police officer because the father wouldn't stop screaming a cussing, and the police thought maybe he would do something stupid at the school. These are the same parents that don't show up to parent/teacher conferences, the same parents who expect their young kids to get themselves out of bed in the morning, dressed, eat breakfast, and off to school on time, with NO parent support. And now these parents are going to homeschool?!?! Therein lies my problem. Homeschooling can be a great thing, or it could be a terrible thing. I don't have the answers, all I have are questions... Some folks, although perhaps well intentioned, should simply keep their contributions to the gene pool to themselves and let us muddle along without their particular .... (stupidity) burdening future generations.
I too am of the opinion that teachers don't get paid enough nor enough support, especially from the parents.
Fortunately both of my daughters grew up in Germany and went through the European school system (they only go to tenth grade) and subsequently learned more during that time then the average American student learns in high school and two years of junior college combined.
I am a great fan of trade schools and apprenticeships, journeyman ships with the eventual goal of being a "Master" in ones trade and teaching what you know ... and the wheel turns on and on.
I truly fear for the future generations if this trend toward the "mis-education" of our children continues ...
"Git 'er done ... Next!" Conveyor belt education.

My hat (and with great respect) goes off to the teachers in the world.
:hippie:

PEACE FROG
03-22-2008, 08:44 AM
Lol that's a rhetorical question right? How better to brainwash patriotic fodder for your wars than when you have them all in one room.
:confused:My boy goes to private school (Christian school). We can't even afford it really but he is very smart so we are trying to offer him every opportunity. They discuss politics, my son is the little boy who raises his hand," My dad says George Bush is not Christian, he just said he was to get elected." "No", his teachers says, "your Daddy is wrong, George bush confessed the lord in front of the nation". "My Dad says that it isn't okay in the bible to lie, and kill and covet your neighbors oil...Mam". I hugged that boy!! See
PUBLICLY EDUCATED-HOME SCHOOLED :D

poppy
03-22-2008, 10:00 AM
There is a sure difference between a parent who is concerned for the child and education received, and one who removes their child over a discipline issue, and in these cases they should have a more structured plan....however providing the average child tests well when homeschooled, they should be allowed to do so.....We have rights, people....they are stripping them, one by one.....California is fast becoming the hipocrit, in that they state concern for the educational welfare of a student, and yet they test so low in the public school system....

My Aunt and Grandmother are both teachers, and I had the great privaledge of helping my aunt out while she studied.....it is hard work to receive credentials.......not practical for most parents.....consider the budget cuts of recent....they are trying to get money for these children by any means possible, and this money isn't neccessarily going to educational purposes....

I saw a story recently about free meals causing loss......they are losing money and they are concerned....never in the past have I heard of these kind of concerns....maybe the quality of the food, but not the monetary loss.
You have the right to be torn, but the basis for this bill, is baseless in my opinion.....it is a lie if they say it is out of concern, that's all I mean....

they are closing schools, less people are training to become teachers, you cannot afford to live as a teacher, I know someone who left teaching, although he loves it, to be a construction worker, for the money.

PEACE FROG
03-22-2008, 11:56 AM
Poppy it seemed like that parent was throwing a fit rather than making a choice. And I agree with you we'd pay an aging rock'n roller $200.00 to see him for an hour and a half but bitch and moan about what we pay the persons entrusted with educating our children. Strange set of priorities.

NCW_Woodnymph
03-22-2008, 01:17 PM
Peace Frog give your son and yourself a pat on the back for me. :) I think the hardest and most important part of being a parent is teaching our children to think for themselves. It's really a balancing act; teaching them to be respectful but question authority, have faith but not believe blindly, be peaceful but stand up for what they believe in. I think that to many people today expect the schools to raise their children, not just teach them academics but also morals and that is not the job of the schools.

:hippie:

StellaBlue
03-23-2008, 07:45 AM
I think that to many people today expect the schools to raise their children, not just teach them academics but also morals and that is not the job of the schools.

Amen, sister.

And believe me, I know the average home-schooled child tests higher than the average public-school student. However, it's not the average ones I'm concerned about. It's all the ones that fly under the radar.

Cheers to you Peace Frog. I imagine your son will be a great man one day. Sounds like he already has a pretty good start.