Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidates

[forrest]

Defying a federal tax law they consider unjust, 33 ministers across the country will take to their pulpits this Sunday and publicly endorse a candidate for president.

They plan to then send copies of their sermons to the Internal Revenue Service, hoping to provoke a challenge to a law that bars religious organizations and other nonprofits that accept tax-deductible contributions from involvement in partisan political campaigns.

The protest, called Pulpit Freedom Sunday, was organized by the Alliance Defense Fund, a consortium of Christian lawyers that fights for conservative religious and social causes. When the fund first announced the protest this year, it said it planned to have 50 ministers taking part. As of Thursday it said it had hundreds of volunteers, but had selected only 33 who were fully aware of the risks and benefits. Rev. Barry W. Lynn, Americans United for Separation of Church & State
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/us/politics/26preach.html?em

What are the risks and benefits?

It’s disgraceful that the Religious Right is trying to forge America’s houses of worship into a partisan political machine. The good news is that a growing number of clergy are speaking out against it. They realize that a pastor’s job is to bring people together – Republicans, Democrats and independents – not use the pulpit to drive wedges into congregations. I am confident that the religious community and the American people at large will reject this reckless scheme.
Americans United: 60 Years of Freedom (http://www.au.org/site/PageServer)

[Crochety Carpenter]

Hey, what do those guys think they are doing, competing with Obamas' "former" preacher?

[LIBRA]

An individualls belief does not, of necessity, translate to ones children. That does not make one a hypocrite.


Does the same apply to ones minister or visa verce?

Has anyone seen the footage of Sarah Palins dewitching? Man that was pretty radical dont ya think. All the speaking in tongues.:ufo:

[Crochety Carpenter]

Does the same apply to ones minister or visa verce?

Has anyone seen the footage of Sarah Palins dewitching? Man that was pretty radical dont ya think. All the speaking in tongues.:ufo:

At least Palin's footage was religeous in nature rather than "Reverend" Wrights anti-American racist rants.

[Adam Blanchard]

hummm... so this is how our lovely country supports the separation of church from government. I like it.. hypocritical as expected. :bud:

I would love to hear about some preiest getting busted for breaking a federal law and/or ordinance.... especially if one gets a resisting arrest charge also. lol

[Crochety Carpenter]

The intent of our founders was that no church denomination or organization should become the official state church, there by becoming a coersive force over consience. The "wall of separation" refered to by Jefferson was a one way wall intended to prohibit government from favoring a particular CHURCH over any others. He went on to say that the government, to stay strong and just, MUST be informed by the tennants of "common Christianity"

[Adam Blanchard]

humm... I did not realize that Jefferson was a party associated with the treaty on Tripoli.

But, according to afore mentioned treaty:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

The President (John Adams) sent the treaty to the Senate in late May 1797. It was, according to the official record, read aloud (the whole treaty was only a page or two long), including the famous words, on the floor of the senate and copies were printed for every Senator. (It should be noted that the controversy about the Arabic version is irrelevant here: all official treaty collections from 1797 on contain the English version, and all include the famous words of Article XI.) A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification. Twenty-three Senators voted to ratify: Bingham, Bloodworth, Blount, Bradford, Brown, Cocke, Foster, Goodhue, Hillhouse, Howard, Langdon, Latimer, Laurance, Livermore, Martin, Paine, Read, Rutherfurd, Sedgwick, Stockton, Tattnall, Tichenor, and Tracy. We should ask ourselves whether we should not consider these 23 (and President Adams) great freethought heroes. In a very public way, they voted to say that "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion, . . ." the Muslims of Tripoli therefore need not fear a religious war from the U.S. The vote was recorded only because at least a fifth of the Senators present voted to require a recorded vote. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required. It was only the third time that a vote was recorded when the vote was unanimous! There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty.

On an amusing note in one of my history classes we learned that Jefferson said, "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

and on a final note: In a sermon of October 1831, Episcopalian minister Bird Wilson said, "Among all of our Presidents, from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."

[Adam Blanchard]

and if you want to know where that Jefferson quote came from look the book up yourself, SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS, by John E. Remsburg

Much of his work on Jefferson came from THE MEMOIRS, CORRESPONDENCE AND MISCELLANIES FROM THE PAPERS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, 4 volumes ed. by Thomas Jefferson Randolph (the grandson of Thomas Jefferson).

[Savon]

HOORAH!:bandit:

[Crochety Carpenter]

On the ropes bleeding from nose and left eye, the bell rings! Saved. going to corner to work on reply. :snail:

[Crochety Carpenter]

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry


"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice, John Jay

Warren G. Harding
It is my conviction that the fundamental trouble with the people of the United States is that they have gotten too far away from Almighty God.

Dwight D. Eisenhower
The purpose of a devout and united people was set forth in the pages of The Bible … (1) to live in freedom, (2) to work in a prosperous land… and (3) to obey the commandments of God… This Biblical story of the Promised land inspired the founders of America. It continues to inspire us.

Ronald Reagan
All are free to believe or not believe, all are free to practice a faith or not, but those who believe must be free to speak of and act on their belief, to apply moral teaching to public questions… Tolerant society is open to and encouraging of all religions, and this does not weaken us; it strengthens us… Without God, there is no virtue, because there's no prompting of the conscience. Without God, we're mired in the material, that flat world that tells us only what the senses perceive. Without God, there is a coarsening of the society and without God, democracy will not and cannot long endure.

Time! My kingdom for time! daughter #3 requires assistance. more later. BEWARE HISTORICAL REVISIONISTS!:bud:

[PEACE FROG]

Interesting that the only place Democracy appears in the Bible is when they voted to crucify Jesus Christ. However the country founded on Christian principals I thought was a well known fact. Our forefathers were Godly men.

[PEACE FROG]

Oh oh I almost forgot. I think that those churches should be audited then lose their tax free status. I think that all churches should pay taxes anyway. It is an abused privilege and those people make obscene bank. It makes me sick.

[NCW_Woodnymph]

That depends on the church. Every good one I've been to, the pastor has at least a part time job during the week. In good churches the majority of the money goes to missions and charities which is why they are tax exempt. I do agree that some churches have things way out of wack but that is the nature of anything involving humans.:)
:hippie:

[PEACE FROG]

That depends on the church. Every good one I've been to, the pastor has at least a part time job during the week. In good churches the majority of the money goes to missions and charities which is why they are tax exempt. I do agree that some churches have things way out of wack but that is the nature of anything involving humans.:)
:hippie:
Isn't that cool. I went to visit this Church down the hill and I remember thinking that I liked the pastor because he at least looked like a "joe six-plumber".:D

[Crochety Carpenter]

Isn't that cool. I went to visit this Church down the hill and I remember thinking that I liked the pastor because he at least looked like a "joe six-plumber".:D

The majority of churches have attendence under 200. Nice, homey, notlike the mega monster churches you see on tv. Alot less ranting too.:ufo:

[PEACE FROG]

I hope you are right. That has not been my experience. The folks that I'd been running with are heavily hooked up into the "Gospel of Prosperity". so, after nine years, I walked.... that's not the Jesus I feel. I don't see the lord as a greedy war mongering capitalist bigot. I wanna turn over their change tables. I would love to meet the brethren you speak of. :)

[Shydog]

Interesting that the only place Democracy appears in the Bible is when they voted to crucify Jesus Christ. However the country founded on Christian principals I thought was a well known fact. Our forefathers were Godly men.
Man do I have to get out some books? Really don't want to. What about the influence of the "Iriquoy" an the "Five Nations" or Free Masonry? Remember that story about Thanksgiving? I mean, for real, the Indians saved their asses! I think the Pilgrams were influenced. One History ch. thing I watched a long time ago said that pilgram Women ran away to the Indian camps all the time. I need to read up on Jeffersonian Democracy. What's up Frog?

[Crochety Carpenter]

Man do I have to get out some books? Really don't want to. What about the influence of the "Iriquoy" an the "Five Nations" or Free Masonry? Remember that story about Thanksgiving? I mean, for real, the Indians saved their asses! I think the Pilgrams were influenced. One History ch. thing I watched a long time ago said that pilgram Women ran away to the Indian camps all the time. I need to read up on Jeffersonian Democracy. What's up Frog?

Hi Shydog,

Only the most extreem historical revisionists seek to deny the sollidly Christian world view that existed at the formation of our country. Even the previously quoted Jefferson can also be cited with statements indicating a reliance on Supreme providence. There is also no doubt about the native people's influence in our government but the motivation to create a nation where men were free to follow their concience is Christian at its core.

Tom

[PEACE FROG]

Man do I have to get out some books? Really don't want to. What about the influence of the "Iriquoy" an the "Five Nations" or Free Masonry? Remember that story about Thanksgiving? I mean, for real, the Indians saved their asses! I think the Pilgrams were influenced. One History ch. thing I watched a long time ago said that pilgram Women ran away to the Indian camps all the time. I need to read up on Jeffersonian Democracy. What's up Frog?
No please not the books!!!! Uh ya, I'd love to Christian bash with ya but.... the truth is what it is. You can go back through history as early as the 1500's and as late as yesterday and find a laundry list of bad shit perpetuated by Christian men. George Bush for example implied at one time that he was a Godly man and a christian but then becomes responsible for millions of deaths and endorses torture. It's not for me to say whether he is a believer or not but I can say that his walk does not bear the fruits of the spirit. I suppose it's always been that way. But ya I believe that the framers of the constitution were Christians and tried to forge a nation with Godly principals. What men have done with it and in the name of God is a different story. BTW welcome to the board!!!:hb:

[forrest]

Interesting that the only place Democracy appears in the Bible is when they voted to crucify Jesus Christ. However the country founded on Christian principals I thought was a well known fact. Our forefathers were Godly men.

The country ???????????

israel?????????????

WRMEA: U.S. Aid to Israel
http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

[Crochety Carpenter]

What's Isreal got to do with it ?
I thought we were talkin' the good ol' US of A.:confused:

BTW Welcome back thought we lost you.:heff2:

[PEACE FROG]

Yes Forrest that was totally random....were you going somewhere?

[LIBRA]

Going crazy perhaps :D

[Crochety Carpenter]

Going crazy perhaps :D

Going? That's generous!

PILE ON! :group_hug