Grow-up or DIE...

[forrest]

Bill Mahr, not a fellow I often agree with, hits the nail on the head right here...

YouTube - Bill Maher's final comment from Religulous (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rIZWDyMLGIQ)

The fact is that Religion must die, for humanity to survive.

[forrest]

Apocalypse (Greek: Ἀποκάλυψις Apokálypsis; "lifting of the veil")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse

[Crochety Carpenter]

The ignorance of those who blindly follow some religeous leader is exceeded only by Bill Mahar and those anti-religeonists who blindly attack that of which they are totally ignorant. True Christianity, as distinguished from organised religeon, has been the most stabilizing and civilizing influence in history. The concept of right and wrong can only be applied objectively in the presence of an impartial "other" who holds all accountable to the same standard. The historic abuses, which you no doubt would like to cite, were aberations that were politicly driven departures from true Christianity and contrary to the teachings of Christ.

[forrest]

I admire your ability to at least look on his view in a non-hate-filled way...

But I would offer the following...

I agree that religious people have often done some great things, sometimes because of their religion and sometimes in spite of it. However, I would say that religion is an idea whose time has come, and gone. We don't need it anymore. It's training wheels for life. We have REAL explanations now, and no longer need to rely on our imaginations to make the world less scary. The primary thing religion does today is serve to divide us as a people.

Yes religion has done good, but does that good outweigh the outright evil committed in the name of religion? I think not. Nearly all of the TRULY evil things that I can recall happening in history and due directly, or in large part to religion. It's time to no longer be divided, but to live as one people, together on spaceship Earth, united for the common cause of survival.

[forrest]

The ignorance of those who blindly follow some religeous leader is exceeded only by Bill Mahar and those anti-religeonists who blindly attack that of which they are totally ignorant. True Christianity, as distinguished from organised religeon, has been the most stabilizing and civilizing influence in history. The concept of right and wrong can only be applied objectively in the presence of an impartial "other" who holds all accountable to the same standard. The historic abuses, which you no doubt would like to cite, were aberations that were politicly driven departures from true Christianity and contrary to the teachings of Christ.

Buddhism
Buddha predicted that his teachings would disappear after 500 years. According to the Sutta Pitaka, the "ten moral courses of conduct" will disappear and people will follow the ten amoral concepts of theft, violence, murder, lying, evil speaking, adultery, abusive and idle talk, covetousness and ill will, wanton greed, and perverted lust resulting in skyrocketing poverty and the end of the worldly laws of true dharma.

Christianity
Christians in the 1st century AD believed the end of the world would come during their lifetime. Jesus in Mark 13:8 compared the end of the world with a mother's birth pain, and the image implied the world was already pregnant with its own destruction, but no one but God knows when it will happen. When the converts of Paul in Thessalonica were persecuted by the Roman Empire, they believed the end was upon them. However, doubt rose when as early as the 90s Christians said, "We have heard these things [of the end of the world] even in the days of our fathers, and look, we have grown old and none of them has happened to us". In the 130s Justin Martyr declared God was delaying the end of the world because he wished for Christianity to become a world religion. In the 250s Cyprian wrote that Christian sins of that time were a prelude and proof that the end was near.

However, by the 3rd century most Christians believed the End was beyond their own lifetime; Jesus, it was believed, had denounced attempts to divine the future, to know the "times and seasons", and such attempts to predict the future were discouraged; yet the End was given a date with the help of Jewish traditions in the Six Ages of the World. Using this system, the End was fixed at 202, but when the date passed, the date was changed to AD 500. After AD 500 the importance of the End as a part of Christianity was marginalized, though it continues to be stressed during the season of Advent.

Some current Christians place the end of the world within their lifetime or shortly thereafter. As evidence to support these ideas, many point to the prolific news coverage of tragedies around the world, sometimes "Biblical" in proportion, and offer interpretations of various passages from the Bible. Also, some Catholics believed that the third part of the Fatima message, which was to be disclosed by the Vatican in 1960 but finally was published under the pontificate of John Paul II, was a prophetic message from the Blessed Mother about the end times, but it turned to be a symbolic message closely related to the assassination attempt of the late Pope.

Hinduism
Hindu traditional prophecies, as described in the Puranas and several other texts, say that the world shall fall into chaos and degradation. There will then be a rapid influx of perversity, greed and conflict, and this state has been described as:

"When deceit falsehood, lethargy, sleepiness, violence, despondency, grief, delusion, fear, and poverty prevail ... when men, filled with conceit, consider themselves equal with the Brahmins...that is the Kali Yuga."

This is followed by the appearance of an avatar, "The Lord shall manifest Himself as the Kalki Avatar...He will establish righteousness upon the earth and the minds of the people will become as pure as crystal...As a result, the Sat or Krta Yuga (golden age) will be established."

Islam
Mohammed Ali Ibn Zubair Ali's Signs of Qiyamah discuss the arrival of the Enlightened One, Imam Mahdi, followed by natural disaster, "The ground will cave in, fog or smoke will cover the skies for forty days. That will appear all over the earth which will cause believers to catch something similar to a slight cold, whereas the unbelievers will be hit harder by it. Finally, a cold wind will come and kill all believers, leaving only unbelievers on the earth who will then witness the Last Hour. The angel Israfil will blow a trumpet, and the resurrection of all human beings will begin. The Qu'ran will be lifted from the hearts of the people.

The "Imam...will create a world state...He will teach you simple living and high thinking. With such a start he will establish an empire of Allah in this world. He will be the final demonstration and proof of Allah's merciful wish to acquaint man with the right ways of life."

Judaism
In Judaism, the end of the world is called the acharit hayamim (end of days). Tumultuous events will overturn the old world order, creating a new order in which God is universally recognized as the ruler over everyone and everything. One of the sages of the Talmud says that, "Let the end of days come, but may I not live to see them", because they will be filled with so much conflict and suffering.

The Talmud, in the tractate Avodah Zarah, page 9A, states that this world as we know it will only exist for six thousand years. The Jewish calendar (luach) functions completely on the assumption that time begins at the Creation of the world by God in Genesis. Many people (notably Conservative and Reform Jews and some Christians) think that the years of the Torah, or Jewish Bible, are symbolic. According to the ancient Jewish teachings continued by today's Orthodox Jews, the years are literal and consistent throughout all time, with 24 hours per day and an average of 365 days per year. Appropriate calibrations are, of course, done with leap years, to account for the difference between the lunar calendar and the solar calendar, since the Jewish calendar is based on both. Thus the year 2005 equals 5765 years since creation on the present Jewish calendar. According to this calculation, the end of days will occur in the year 2240.

Native American
Hopi
Tribal leaders of the Hopi tribe, such as Dan Evehama, Thomas Banyaca and Martin Gashwaseoma prophecize that the coming of the white man signals the end times, along with a strange beast "like a buffalo but with great horns that would overrun the land" (i.e. cattle). It is prophesized that during the end times the earth would be crossed by iron snakes and stone rivers, (i.e. railroads), and the land would be criss-crossed by a giant spider's web (i.e. freeways), and seas will turn black (i.e. oil spills).

It is also prophesized that a "great dwelling place" in the heavens shall fall with a great crash. It will appear as a blue star, and the earth will rock to and fro. White men would then battle people in other lands, with those who possess wisdom of their presence. There would then be smoke in the deserts, and the signs that great destruction is near.

Many would then die, but those who understand the prophecies shall live in the places of the Hopi people and be safe. The Pahana or "True White Brother" would then return to plant the seeds of wisdom in people's hearts, and thus usher in the dawn of the Fifth World.

Mayans
The Mayans believe that earth would be destroyed by several catastrophes (i.e. earthquakes, volcanoes, floods etc.). Civilizations would then collapse, and the Indian god Kulkulcan - the Mayan equivalent to the Aztec Quetzalcoatl - a feathered serpent deity, who represents forces of good and light, would then appear.

According to The Mayan Prophecies "The end of artificial time signals and the return to natural light, a time in harmony with the Earth and with the natural cycles [would] hold the potential to reinstate a balanced, positive love and unity cycle."

The current Mayan calendar cycle ends on December 21, 2012, thus this year is predicted to be the end of the world according to several prophecies.

[forrest]

Sioux
According to an Ogalala - or Sioux medicine man - "darkness would descend over the tribe...the world would be out of balance. Floods, fires and earthquakes would then ensue."

A "White Buffalo Calf Woman" will then purify the world. She will then bring back harmony and spiritual balance.
A white buffalo was born in 1994, and another in 1995. Many tribal leaders thus feel that the prophecy is being fulfilled.

Norse mythology
In Norse mythology a strong winter called the Fimbulwinter will seize the earth and bring disorder and fighting between the people of Midgard just before Ragnarok. Ragnarok ("fate of the gods") is the battle during the end of the world waged between the gods (the Æsir, the Vaner and the Einherjar, led by Odin) and the forces of Chaos (the fire giants, the Jotuns and various monsters, led by Loki). Not only will the gods, giants, and monsters perish in this apocalyptic conflagration, but almost everything in the universe will be torn asunder.
Zoroastrianism
Zoroastrianism eschatology is the oldest eschatology in recorded history. By 500 BC, Zoroastrians had fully developed a concept of the end of the world through a divine devouring in fire.

According to Zoroastrian philosophy, redacted in the Zand-i Vohuman Yasht, "at the end of thy tenth hundredth winter...the sun is more unseen and more spotted; the year, month, and day are shorter; and the earth is more barren; and the crop will not yield the seed; and men ... become more deceitful and more given to vile practices. They have no gratitude."

At the end of the Battle between the righteous and wicked, a Final Judgement of all souls will commence. Sinners will be punished 3 days, but are then forgiven. The world will reach perfection as poverty, old age, disease, thirst, hunger and death are halted. Zoroastrian concepts parallel greatly with those of Jewish, Christian, and Islamic eschatological beliefs, largely due to the influence Zoastrianism exerted on Judaism whilst the Levant was under Achaemenid control and the subsequent emergence of Christianity and Islam from Judaism.
Prophetic movements
In 1843, William Miller made the first of several predictions that the world would end in only a few months. Obviously, none of them took place, but followers of Miller went on to found separate churches, the most successful of which is the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Armageddon Online - Eschatology - End of the World Views (http://www.armageddononline.org/eschatology.php)

[Crochety Carpenter]

WOW!

Not convinced but really impressed. Thanks for the info. A problem intrinsic in your information is that it is rooted in relativism That is that there is no truth but the truth you percieve which may or may not agree with the truth of another. I believe that truth is. Whether or not I know it, it remains truth.

That being the case, if, as I believe, there is one God and Creator who, for his own reasons, created mankind starting with one couple, similarities in perceptions of him, known as religeons, would be inevitable. Likewise, due to the fallen nature of mankind, there would be wide variations. None of these variations have any influence on God any more than the perceptions of the blind men had on the reality that was the elephant, if you are familiar with that parable.

Truth being the ultimate goal. Evolution and humanism fall way short of that goal.

[forrest]

If people need no faith to chart a moral, honorable path in life, so be it. Some people do need such a guideline. What is sad is when they insist theirs is the ONLY guideline that works. And that isn't limited to religion.

I think religion is fine, some people need it... The major problem is when people think their religion is the only valid religion. I personally don't like when people think they need to "Save" others...

The Biblical premise is that all human beings are fatally flawed, not good enough and in need of vast improvements and control of their "human nature." (Why would an all perfect God create us like this, just because he needs to send people to hell?) Without this ongoing overcoming of the evil self, growing towards a better kind of person and change, one runs the risk of being so not good enough that they will spend eternity, for their inability to change over a rather short lifetime, in a punishing hell. This is not a spirituality that one need struggle with!

[Crochety Carpenter]

The Biblical narritive God Created mankind in a perfect state for perfect fellowship with him. To make that fellowship meaningful and not forced God gave man a choice, the tree of life (fellowship with him) or the tree of the knowlege of good and evil (self-sufficiancy which leads to death, not out of an oppressive desire to inflict punishment but by the reality of seperation from the source of life). Man chose, and continues to choose, separation an self sufficiancy. God, due to the love he has for mankind, took on human form and paid the price so that we can be restored to the fellowship he intended from the begining. That fellowship is true Christianity, not the forced unnatural compliance that is religeon. Nothing coercive. Your choice is your choice. But truth is truth and consequences is consequences. :)

[Adam Blanchard]

I think the biggest problem is that the bible says all of mankind come from Adam & Eve. Only problem I see with that is we are apparently all inbred and related. Every person on the planet. So does this make war comparable to a holiday gathering inspired drunken fist fight between uncle Charlie and uncle Sam over who's missiles are bigger and can cause more damage?

[Crochety Carpenter]

Right Adam! You got it!:D

[Adam Blanchard]

Although for the title of the thread... I have to bitch..... even if we do grow-up we will still die. By growing up we also lose a sense of self and innocent ignorance that we have as children and get old.. I refuse to grow-up or die.

[forrest]

The Biblical narritive God Created mankind in a perfect state for perfect fellowship with him. To make that fellowship meaningful and not forced God gave man a choice, the tree of life (fellowship with him) or the tree of the knowlege of good and evil (self-sufficiancy which leads to death, not out of an oppressive desire to inflict punishment but by the reality of seperation from the source of life). Man chose, and continues to choose, separation an self sufficiancy. God, due to the love he has for mankind, took on human form and paid the price so that we can be restored to the fellowship he intended from the begining. That fellowship is true Christianity, not the forced unnatural compliance that is religeon. Nothing coercive. Your choice is your choice. But truth is truth and consequences is consequences. :)

"Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children." ---Ancient Indian Proverb

And while I stood there I saw more than I can tell and I understood more than I saw; for I was seeing in a sacred manner the shapes of all things in the spirit, and the shape of all shapes as they must live together like one being.---Black Elk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUZg6VHfcLM


Grandfather, Great Spirit, once more behold me on earth and lean to hear my feeble voice.---Black Elk

If anyone pleases, hit play under Music from Cry of the Great Spirit by Circle of Existence
http://www.circleofexistence.com/quotes/mourning.php

[forrest]

We Are One - Fashions for Peace (http://www.fashionsforpeace.com/pages/golden.asp)

Better version............
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTO7WVxjz3A&feature=related

[CowboyHippy]

who gives a shit. believe what you want, i'll put my faith in something that unites people regardless of what they believe where they were born or who their friends are.

[LIBRA]

who gives a shit. believe what you want, i'll put my faith in something that unites people regardless of what they believe where they were born or who their friends are.

Right on!!!!

[Adam Blanchard]

damn... so I guess I should stop considering myself a god in my own mmind then huh... crap! and I was going to go for religious tax exemption....

[Crochety Carpenter]

That's right believe what you wish, it doesn't change my attitude toward you one bit. I still like you and enjoy you and accept you as you are. The problem is that truth is truth. If you don't believe in gravity you won't hit the ground any less hard when you walk off of the cliff. If you don't believe in air you will still be sustained by it. One Jew said to another "I have decided I don't believe God exists." the other responded "You really think He cares?". Believe what you wish, even if I could force my beliefs on you I wouldn't, but I do have the same right that you do to express them.:D

[CowboyHippy]

damn... so I guess I should stop considering myself a god in my own mmind then huh... crap! and I was going to go for religious tax exemption....

i don't think you'd blend in well with the amish, :).
next time i am down your way i'll attend your services. will your dad be playing some of his songs?

[Adam Blanchard]

lol my services consist of a few bowls and a movie or two. As for dad playing I doubt it.... but you never know.

[Crochety Carpenter]

Maybe not Amish but I can think of several places where you and Gary would seem tame. LOL:D

[forrest]

WOW!

Not convinced but really impressed. Thanks for the info. A problem intrinsic in your information is that it is rooted in relativism That is that there is no truth but the truth you percieve which may or may not agree with the truth of another. I believe that truth is. Whether or not I know it, it remains truth.

That being the case, if, as I believe, there is one God and Creator who, for his own reasons, created mankind starting with one couple, similarities in perceptions of him, known as religeons, would be inevitable. Likewise, due to the fallen nature of mankind, there would be wide variations. None of these variations have any influence on God any more than the perceptions of the blind men had on the reality that was the elephant, if you are familiar with that parable.

Truth being the ultimate goal. Evolution and humanism fall way short of that goal.


You failed to single out what is relativism and what is not relativism.
http://www.armageddononline.org/eschatology.php