Tolerance

[Gaston]

Once, there was a great deal of tolerance at least in the "hippie" community. It was usually a bit one-sided with the hippies getting the worst of the bargain, but it went beyond rhetoric - it was absolutely palpable within the hip community.

Where did it go? More importantly, why did it go? If you would point your finger at the neo-con-evangelists, then you plainly didn't live through the 50's and 60's; today's hardliners are a pale shadow of those buttoned-up days.

I suspect that we're engaging in a bit too much "push back", and it's causing far more harm than good. What do you think? Do we now think we'll catch more flies with lots of vinegar, since the honey didn't work fast enough to suit us?

[LIBRA]

Ive wondered the same thing. Seems like people have a hard time being tolerant of anything that is not there own. If its not there idea, thought, belief well then its just wrong. I know I am guilty of that at times, I try to understand all sides but it is hard to do when you feel so strongly about it one way or another.

All I can do it try and by trying, hopefully that may rub off onto someone else and continue to do that..

[Crochety Carpenter]

Tolerance is a loaded concept. If by tolerance you mean you believe your way, I believe mine, then tolerance is a very laudable thing. If by tolerance you mean that I have to change my beliefs that you may find offensive then there is a problem. In my view tolerance consists in acceptance of the individual reguarless of belief. This weekend I had a very enjoyable dinner with three gay men. They did not change their views nor I mine. They are fully aware of my views on homosexuallity, gay marriage, and the ultimate culmination of the universe and I of theirs yet we had a very pleasant dinner. This is tolerance. We dissagree on most moral and political issues but tolerate and even enjoy eachother's company. The same holds true on this site. Though you may, at times...most times, find my views irritating I enjoy you all. The statement of my opinions is not intended as a refutation of your views as much as an offering of something else to consider. Tolerance lets me think well of you while dissagreeing with you.

[Gary Blanchard]

I see tolerance as agreeing that a person has a right to their belief as I have a right to mine. Tolerance is stating disagreement with respect and civility.

During the 60's I was involved in a lot of antiwar activities. I also treated my draft board and soldiers with respect. They followed their conscience just as I followed mine.

The I'm right/you're wrong mentality keeps us locked in battles and does not allow for change. We need to step back so we can move forward. :hippie:

[Crochety Carpenter]

"The I'm right/you're wrong mentality keeps us locked in battles and does not allow for change. We need to step back so we can move forward."


Hmmm... If I don't believe I'm right why wouldn't I change? If I believe you are fataly wrong, am I not morally bound to help you see your error? And cannot you say the same?

This does not mean that I am intolerant of you as a person or that I see myself as having a right to force you to believe as I do, only an obligation to warn.

[Gary Blanchard]

I felt it was clear that I was refererring to the "I'm right, you're wrong. therefore you are an idiot and I'll call you every name in the book" mindset. Obviously I did not make that clear. Sorry.

[Crochety Carpenter]

Ahhh... I see.:cheers:

[forrest]

:D

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/B-MyGodCanBeatUp.gif

http://missivesfrommarx.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/my-dad.jpg

[Gaston]

Polite, welcomed discussion is a far different world from the "I'm right, you're wrong" arguments. It is very, very treacherous ground if you wish to remain friends, but if you are indeed friends first then there will be times you wish to have those conversations. I suspect that if you avoid them entirely, you aren't really friends yet, and if you force them, you aren't friends at all and probably never will be.

I suppose that much of what I think is holding us back is preachiness - from every perspective. That's an unfortunate word, "preachiness", as it connotes the Christian religion being rammed down someone's throat - but, it is the word we have, and it's properly applied to everyone who forces, even verbally, their beliefs upon others. I could have said "evangelising", and while it's a softer term it has the same tie to Christianity. Maybe someone will give me a more neutral word that has the same meaning and expand my vocabulary, it would be welcomed. It's unfortunate that these common words we use for forcing our beliefs upon others all come from the same wellspring. Maybe we can change that.

Which brings us back to tolerance, doesn't it? :D

[Crochety Carpenter]

Does holding ones beliefs strongly constitute forcing them on others?
I recently had an interaction on another forum with a homosexual who is a shirttail relation of mine. The question was posed "Would you vote for a homosexual who agreed with you on all other matters?" My answer was no. My cousin posted a response that mocked my position by saying, amoung other things, that homosexuality was not contageous and I should get over my fear. I returned that I had no fear,no hate, no ignorance, it's just my view.
After asking if I would not vote for someone who agreed with my positions, to which I responded that if the candidate viewed homosexuality as a morally neutral choice he would not hold my views, he said he had no time for my biggoted views. Would you say I was forcing my beliefs on him?

[PEACE FROG]

Why does whom one loves or what is done in the privacy of their own homes effect YOU anyways? Why should YOU even have an opinion? Why is that YOUR buisness? Just cuz you had dinner with a couple fags does'nt make you tolerant.... just hungry at the time. Tolerance is a "live and let live" thing not a quest for your mirror image. When you discount folks for things you don't agree with, you rob yourself and others of their potential contribution. Especially when it's something that that person cant help. Next whadda ya say we go after them damned handicaps... get our parking spaces back. Am I being intolerant right now with you? Well thus far I've refrained from calling you a Facist, a Nazi or a Dickhead. I wish you PEACE, I love you my troubled brother.

[LIBRA]

Does holding ones beliefs strongly constitute forcing them on others?
Would you say I was forcing my beliefs on him?

Doesnt sound it but you sure do love too spread it around every single chance you get :D Its surely known how you feel.

I dont think its anyones business who you love, love is love and I am happy for anyone who can experience that. Ive never been in love so seeing a couple no matter what there sex in love, is a beautiful thing. And trying to demean that is in no way tolerant. Call me intolerant if you will but Id rather be a lesbian then to sit down to a meal with someone like yourself. Its funny because I consider myself tolerant, but I guess Im really not, I find it so hard to control when someone is so downright single minded about things, esp when its hurtful. I can understand different religions and why they control peoples minds or at least it seems that way, but when it comes to love, why would any religion tell you that its wrong to love?

[PEACE FROG]

I'm not intolerant.... I'm impatient. I also am too quick to respond sometimes before my "spirit man", my "inner-Ed", my "voice of reason" puts things into perspective. I also struggle with not hating the haters. It is not the loving that religions have a problem with Denise. It is the sex... they are overly concerned with the use of penises and vaginas. But "RELIGIONS" are just that, religions. Religion has nothing to do with spirituality, love or God per`se. It's just the application of that "clubs" by-laws. So the religious rhetoric that folk spout is just the rules told to them by someone who was told by someone else. Since there is nothing being done out of love these rules can be served cold in the same manner a cop gives you a ticket. Jesus never mentioned homosexuality that I can think of.... he did however say "LOVE your Brother". I am sad that you say you've never been in love Denise. You are the coolest freaking person I've "never" met. And I've "never" met alot of people LOL!

[LIBRA]

Id have to say Im the same way, impatient is better description :) I tend to speak first, think second. Its hard to control that inner voice isnt it.

Why does religion scare the sex outta people?

My love will find me. Im filled with all kinds of love, Im happy with that :)

[Crochety Carpenter]

Here I am again sitting in a can. Wonderful how the enlightened liberals box up anything they can't understand and label it Fear or hate.

[LIBRA]

:kngt: Awwww poor you, always being beaten up on by us mean liberals. Always labeling you for your beliefs, we are such mean evil hating bullies arent we. Poor guy. Must be hard going around with such sensitivity and understanding, being so full of love its about ready to burst all over the nice gay folks sitting across the table from you. Thats rough.

[Crochety Carpenter]

Yup! Tolerance. Such a beautiful thing. :D

[PEACE FROG]

No one called you Hateful or Affraid ..... then you whine about being put in a "box" while errecting a box of your own, calling us "LIBERALS". Earlier you said, "If I believe you are fataly wrong, am I not morally bound to help you see your error?" When we attempt to do the same you cry fowl. THEN you asked, Would you say I was forcing my beliefs on him? So, you envited our imput and asked for the criticism. In the beginning of this thread when you said, Tolerance lets me think well of you while dissagreeing with you.
Now that was "SPOT ON" ,why did'nt you just stop there?

[Adam Blanchard]

I'm not a good one to talk about tolerance. I'm a really strange and out there person and most people don't agree with many of my views/beliefs. I really don't care if they like them or not yet some people feel that have to show me the error of my ways. Those people I can not tolerate at all. I can discuss both sides of the views while playing devils advocate even to my own views but I'm not going to tell someone they are wrong if I believe that I am right. I'm also not going to force someone to try and see my way because I don't believe what they are doing is right. I think of it like a heroin junkie, you can tell them over and over that that mess will kill them and they need to stop but to them that isn't the case. I won't tell them it will kill them because I'm sure they have heard that numerous times just as everone has had to hear or deal with someone having opposing views. The way I see it if you don't like me or my views then either find a way to get past it and deal with it or leave me alone, if you can't do that then drink a bottle of bleach so I can have a nice day. Then again I have always been told that I'm an a**hole. lol

[Crochety Carpenter]

"In the beginning of this thread when you said, Tolerance lets me think well of you while dissagreeing with you.
Now that was "SPOT ON" ,why did'nt you just stop there?"

But I DO still think well of you... even if I have pissed you off. :D

I just never learned when to quit and I haven't been irritating for soooo long... :hippie:

[Gaston]

Thank you, folks, for demonstrating my point. It seems we can't even discuss tolerance without using intolerant language, and it's that very thing I wish we would all try to change.

It's going to be difficult, though, in today's environment of sensationalist TV and newspapers (well, the papers have pretty much always been that way), politics seen as a battlefield, and the unbridled capitalism that shapes our lives. Clearly, tolerance now lives in a hostile environment.

Am asking that we change that environment by making ourselves better, thus starving that hostile environment of the nutriments it needs to continue. When we can discuss instead of oppose, we can make all of our lives better.

[LIBRA]

How? I just cant keep quiet when Im overwhelmed with feeling, and I have such a hard time expressing those feelings when Im trying to understand someone elses views that are so unlike my own. Its so hard.:o

Im sorry to be part of the problem, and in real life I try alot harder thats for sure, I bite my tongue ALOT..but I do try.

[Hippie Staff]

So we have a Jehovah's witness kid in my daughter's class this year. They don't believe in celebrating anything, not even birthdays.

This is an exercise in my tolerance/religion level this year, as I'm helping out in planning the class parties. This should get good.

heheh

[Crochety Carpenter]

Im sorry to be part of the problem, and in real life I try alot harder thats for sure, I bite my tongue ALOT..but I do try.

Ouch! Don't do that! Just give reasoned responses.:hippie:

[Gaston]

How? I just cant keep quiet when Im overwhelmed with feeling, and I have such a hard time expressing those feelings when Im trying to understand someone elses views that are so unlike my own. Its so hard.:o

Im sorry to be part of the problem, and in real life I try alot harder thats for sure, I bite my tongue ALOT..but I do try.

My tongue isn't broken either, Libra - obviously.

It wasn't a rhetorical question - I wish I knew how we could discuss tolerance and thus get closer to the ideal without alienating each other just by the discussion.

If it were easy, it would have already been done. :D

[Gaston]

So we have a Jehovah's witness kid in my daughter's class this year. They don't believe in celebrating anything, not even birthdays.

My experience with them is while they won't give holiday presents, they will accept them if you don't insist that the present is connected with the holiday. How convenient!

[PEACE FROG]

Whatever their beliefs I admire their dedication and faith whether I agree with them or not. I hope that that isn't all they are about. I hope they are enjoying their lives and each other. I hope that they are seeking a fulfilling spiritual life as well. :62:

[LIBRA]

I know the jehovahs that came to my door enjoyed their experience LOL!!!! They got an eyefull and an earfull!!! Nothing mean, I just didnt know they were standing at the door untill it was too late!

http://panthercs.ibeatyou.com/155296_ptetb_1253070953.jpg

you get the picture!!! lol!!!

[PEACE FROG]

I never considered greeting them naked..... the Police requested that I not do that anymore. :D

[Hippie Staff]

Ok, that is my annoys me..we have to change/cancel our our class parties to respect this one individual and her non-celebrating -beliefs/yet this group feels it's ok not to respect my time when they bang on the door to hand me a WatchTower and yap yap yap.

I like the nekkid greeting.

[LIBRA]

Did I ever tell you guys about that? What happened etc..? If not tell me cause its a funny story!!!

Meg, I agree totally!!

[Gary Blanchard]

One day a Baptist minister knocked on my door doing a "survey." I had just finished a class in school where we had to cold-call people to do a survey so I went along with it. He started by asking my religion, and I told him I was a Taoist. So he told me all about Jesus (nothing I didn't know, as I spent years in a fundamentalist church) and I told him all about the Tao. It was a nice time and we both came away from the experience feeling that we had done something. Not bad, when you think about it. :hippie:

[Gaston]

I once had a very good experience with the Jehovah's Witnesses (well, except for the fact that they knocked on my door uninvited). They handed me a Watchtower and asked if they could come in an talk with us, and I told them "that's certainly a nice booklet" and gave it back to them. I then said "you see, we're Buddhists, and I'd hate to waste your time and the cost of the booklet".

Surprisingly, one of them said "There aren't many Buddhists around here, I'll bet you're lonely. Where do you go to worship?" I replied "the Universe is our church, we can worship anywhere. The place doesn't matter, it's what's in your heart that is important".

They smiled, thanked me for my time, and left ... and better still, none of them ever bothered us again. I thought that was very nice, and very tolerant of them. I'll admit that was a pleasant surprise, as I fully expected them to hound us to get try to get new converts.

[Adam Blanchard]

I scared some jehovas wittnesses before, and completely unintentionaly! Yhen I was like 19 or 20 I was out in my moms backyard practicing with my swords back when I was doing alot of padded weapons fighting (altho I practiced with a real claymore and an english long sword) and I had finished up and was on my way through the house to get a shower and heard a knock on the door so I opened it up and there were 2 wittnesses standing there. mind you I had my claymore resting across my shoulder at the time so it was in full and plain view. They didn't stay long and just handed me a pamphlet then left appearing to be a shade or two pailer, never even asked if I believed in god or anything. I haven't seen any around my mothers house since. I kind of felt bad about it but a cop never showed up at my door so I guess it all worked out. :bat:

[Gaston]

One day a Baptist minister knocked on my door doing a "survey." I had just finished a class in school where we had to cold-call people to do a survey so I went along with it. He started by asking my religion, and I told him I was a Taoist. So he told me all about Jesus (nothing I didn't know, as I spent years in a fundamentalist church) and I told him all about the Tao. It was a nice time and we both came away from the experience feeling that we had done something. Not bad, when you think about it. :hippie:

I don't see the two as incompatible, especially if you are open to accepting the Gnostic Gospels. When the fundies tell me "Oh, that's not in the Bible" I tell them "I'm sorry, I didn't know you were Catholic; they're the ones who excluded them, you know". That's a half-truth, but it gets them off my ass.

[PEACE FROG]

I am reading a book that refers to Catholisism as "the pagenizing of the church" I got a kick out of that. :)

[LIBRA]

Catholisism as "the pagenizing of the church


Pagans came first :)