Real science

[Crochety Carpenter]

If you are interested in some REAL science check this out...I dare you.

http://creation.com/

[Gary Blanchard]

Stirring the pot, are we? :D

[Crochety Carpenter]

Yea, kind of boreing around here. snicker. :D

[PEACE FROG]

I don't know that it is necessarily science when you, with bias, work backwards from what you already think are the results. The truth, when it is the truth, never has to be defended it just is and will speak for itself. ;)

[Crochety Carpenter]

The unbiased evidence supports the truth. The problem arises from the from the fact that there is NO unbiased assesment of the evidence. Everyone evaluates the evidence from thier own set of pre-suppositions. Up untill Darwin's speculations spontaneous generation had been disproven and was not considered science. Strange that something proveably impossible is now the basis- the very foundation- of what is supposedly indisputable science. The ONLY advantage of evolutionism is that it allows people the illusion of a rational reason to disbelieve the existance of God. :smilie_wa

[Adam Blanchard]

What's wrong with working backwards? Reverse engineering is rather popular now days. As for the existence of god, that is all up to the individual and how they percive things. Perception is such a strange mistress. I never really bought into the whole god thing and evolution seems much more likely that suddenly *poof* there is man because some invisible being got bored and decided to make it so. :bat::bat::bat:

[Unkle_John]

Yea, kind of boreing around here. snicker. :D

There are better, more constructive ways to get people talking besides intentionally trying to stir up negative reactions.
That's considered trolling in my book.

[NCW_Woodnymph]

No need to react negatively to controversial topics. You believe what you believe. Do you have a reason? Of course you do. It doesn't hurt to discuss what we believe unless we start from the position that anyone who doesn't believe the way we do is stupid. :D

[PEACE FROG]

What's wrong with working backwards? Reverse engineering is rather popular now days. As for the existence of god, that is all up to the individual and how they percive things. Perception is such a strange mistress. I never really bought into the whole god thing and evolution seems much more likely that suddenly *poof* there is man because some invisible being got bored and decided to make it so. :bat::bat::bat:
Objectivity is the key Adam.

[PEACE FROG]

It was not my intention to be offensive, I was merely responding to the title "REAL SCIENCE" in my first post. Everyone believes differently, it is a personal thing. What to them, has resounded as the truth and what works for them. I love learning about what other people believe and enjoy other perspectives. I do think however people who have a disire to share their faith, opinion, perspective should do so in a manner that does not alienate the listener. We all, no matter what we believe have more in common, in this collective conscience that is the human race, than we have differences.

[Crochety Carpenter]

Well put. Sooooo, did you check the link?:D:D

[PEACE FROG]

Yes of course I did. Was there a particular article that you were impressed with?

[NCW_Woodnymph]

Totally off topic but, Froggy I love your tag line. It's such a hopeful place to start. :D

Adam, I've always thought "poof there was man" made at least as much sense as "there was nothing and then it exploded". It is a matter of perspective. It was fact that the world was flat until it was proven otherwise. The only fact is that there is much that we will never know or understand. The rest is theory.

[NCW_Woodnymph]

Here's an interesting one. http://creation.com/darwins-finches

[unclejoe]

went to the site. checked their contact roster. no women or persons of color. :confused: hmm??
=====
a theory is a set of thoughts/available facts/assumptions/possibilities
strung together in an intelligent, hopefully, manner
to describe some process/phenomena/event.

scientists work with theories.
creationists prefer a prewritten script. (less work, easy money)

BTY: Darwin was always a religious person.
he never questioned that god created it all.
Charles was curious as to how god went about it.

[Unkle_John]

BTY: Darwin was always a religious person.
he never questioned that god created it all.
Charles was curious as to how god went about it.

Agreed.

:weird39:

[PEACE FROG]

Totally off topic but, Froggy I love your tag line. It's such a hopeful place to start. :D

Adam, I've always thought "poof there was man" made at least as much sense as "there was nothing and then it exploded". It is a matter of perspective. It was fact that the world was flat until it was proven otherwise. The only fact is that there is much that we will never know or understand. The rest is theory.

Thankyou Woodnymph, its a quote from a song lyric from a Christian folk singer by the name of Jan Krist. Check her out.


Kuddos Uncle Joe!

[LIBRA]

BTY: Darwin was always a religious person.
he never questioned that god created it all.
Charles was curious as to how god went about it

Thats what I was thinking too! I went to a Darwin exhibit in Chicago a few years back, it was amazing.

[Crochety Carpenter]

IF Darwin was a "religeous" man I think he's singing "Look what they've done to my song ma" as he spins in his grave. :ufo:

[PEACE FROG]

The reason that Christians seem obsessed with scientific proof of the bible is because it is thought to be the inspired word of God and INFALLIBLE. If you can find one thing wrong, other things come into question. The old testament contains 39 books the first 5 are the chronicles of tribes of people who later became the Isrealites. These books also contain the laws handed down regarding how to be God's people as per the covenant made with Abraham.The next 12 books are a historical account of the trials and tribulations of the Israelites as they shape the land of milk and honey that God promissed them. Next you have 6 books of the life and times of King Saul, King David and Soloman. In the next 3 books you have more history of Israel and the restoration of Jerusalem. 5 books of poetry and 17 books of prophecy. Some of the old testament was passed down for generations as oral tradition. The rest was translated from ancient scrolls. In the new testament we have 27 books. The first 4 are called the Synoptic Gospels they are eyewittness accounts of Christ's ministry. We then have letters of instruction written by apostles to different early Christian churches, some were by apostles written to each other. The final book is an apocalyptic prophecy.

Not exactly science....... was never intended to be. A wonderful book of history, inspiration, instruction and encouragement. For a once great people who worshipped their God and did their best to preserve their traditions and way of life. The earthly ministry of Jesus Christ ended with intructions to spread his teachings of love and unity throughout the world.

[LIBRA]

The earthly ministry of Jesus Christ ended with intructions to spread his teachings of love and unity throughout the world

Exactly :hb:

[Crochety Carpenter]

The earthly ministry of Jesus Christ ended with intructions to spread his teachings of love and unity throughout the world.[/QUOTE]

His actuall instructions were:
According to Luke the historian, "... that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations..." Luke 24:47

According to Mark who put down the eye-witness account of Peter, "He said unto them,'Go into all the world and preach the gospel (Good news that God has, in Jesus, made a way of salvation from sin) to every creature. He who believes and is baptised will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemed.'" Mark 16:15,16

According to Matthew the tax gatherer and eye-witness, "And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, ' All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and the Son , and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you...'"

Indeed Love is the greatest commandment and in it all of the commandments are fulfilled, (Matthew 22:40, Mark 12:29, John 13:34), but payment for sin, for being un-loving, must still be made because the soul that sinneth shall surely die (a consequence not a judgement). That is the gospel that Jesus sent people out to teach, that through His death and resurection (one of the most historicly established facts of history) payment has been made and all can be reconciled to God.

Bit preachy but true none-the-less. :D:hippie:

[PEACE FROG]

Semantics. I don't know why you found it nessesary to expand on this, perhaps I over simlified. The book of Mathew ends with "the great comission" in which as you stated Jesus told the apostles to," go forth and preach the Gospel or (God's spell) to all nations teaching them the things that I have commanded you". (paraphrased) Jesus taught alot of things but what was commanded was to love God and to love your brother. The soul being a reflection of what is in the heart will truely be in both repentence and remission if you fill it with love. All of this, is part of a belief system not science. These things are believed by faith and not by sight. Faith in things believed and not seen are part of all faiths and religions. Even the choice not to believe is a faith. I am glad that you have found a faith that resonates in your spirit and fills you with peace, joy and love. But trust me, you don't want your faith becomming science. God's people have already had the law.

[Crochety Carpenter]

Semantics. I don't know why you found it nessesary to expand on this, perhaps I over simlified. The book of Mathew ends with "the great comission" in which as you stated Jesus told the apostles to," go forth and preach the Gospel or (God's spell) to all nations teaching them the things that I have commanded you". (paraphrased) Jesus taught alot of things but what was commanded was to love God and to love your brother. The soul being a reflection of what is in the heart will truely be in both repentence and remission if you fill it with love. All of this, is part of a belief system not science. These things are believed by faith and not by sight. Faith in things believed and not seen are part of all faiths and religions. Even the choice not to believe is a faith. I am glad that you have found a faith that resonates in your spirit and fills you with peace, joy and love. But trust me, you don't want your faith becomming science. God's people have already had the law.

You are right Faith is Faith and Science is Science. My point is that evolution involves much more faith than science, and science supports creation more than evolution.

From astronomics to micro-biology alleged science lacks the evidence for the answers and pollutes the search for them with wild speculations based on evolutionary fairy tales.

"A long time ago and far far away nothing exploded and became planets where there developed a primordial soup which spontaneously sprang to life and decided to grow fins which developed into legs and decided to climb trees untill it got too smart and started using tools which it used to develope technology and here we are."

That versus:

"An eternally existant intelligence created all that is for his own reasons and ordered by his own intent."

I'll take the latter especially since the things that ARE scientifically verifiable support it. :cheers:

[PEACE FROG]

I can see that this is going nowhere.. I don't think that a conversation can be had with you if you just get silly about it. Although some scientific theories do not apeal to your ego that does not discount them. I've heard many times people say,"I don't know about you but I didn't come from no ape"! I really don't think we did. However, it's not because someone's ego finds it more attractive to appear fully formed and ready to roll. I need to have more information than that, to weigh against other pieces of information.

In science there are theories that get replaced by other theories when there are advancements in technology and more information becomes available. I don't think science ever says," this must be true because yer stupid"!

BTW I believe we were created, as do many peoples of the world. Not just the Christians. And certainly not because of the mob mentality of a bunch of school yard bully types who believe that they are the sole owners of Willy Wonka's golden ticket and if they yell loud enough it must be true.

[Pedata]

.In science there are theories that get replaced by other theories when there are advancements in technology and more information becomes available.

That's right! About every twenty years "they" say oops we were wrong, now it's this way. lol

-Cass

[unclejoe]

... "An eternally existant intelligence created all that is for his own reasons and ordered by his own intent."...

try this one


"...and on the Sixth Day,
God surveyed all that had been accomplished
and thought 'I need a good laugh.']

So, she created Man..."

:p

[PEACE FROG]

That's right! About every twenty years "they" say oops we were wrong, now it's this way. lol

-Cass

Ya I think one of the problems with science is it only seems to want to deal with the physical realm.

[Crochety Carpenter]

BTW I believe we were created, as do many peoples of the world. Not just the Christians. And certainly not because of the mob mentality of a bunch of school yard bully types who believe that they are the sole owners of Willy Wonka's golden ticket and if they yell loud enough it must be true.

I don't mean to be obstinate nor do I adhere to "the mob mentality of a bunch of school yard bully types". The fact is that the science supports creation and specifically the Biblical account yet when the evolution view is challenged those who support truth are accused of saying, "this must be true because yer stupid"!
One is forced to wonder why the "stupid" idea of evolution ever gained dominance and the answer is abundantly clear. It allows people to exclude the existence of God and supports the purveyance of humanism. This is the very tap root of the societal decline that even us faithful hippies decry.
People intrinsically know the absurdity of evolution but the educational elitists continue to indoctrinate it into the populace, belittling, ostracizing and marginalizing any who point out that Darwin has no clothes.
For instance virtually anyone who spends any time in the wild knows that when things die they decay or are consumed long before they can be fossilized. The very existence of fossils shows that a major catastrophe took place that deposited most sediment layers simultaneously. In fact most large fossils penetrate multiple layers. Surely you remember the old EXXON commercials which stated that "a long time ago some pterodactyls, t-rexes, and other dinosaurs got together and decided to create some oil...". The gradual processes of time could never have accounted for the consolidation of sufficient biomass to create oil let alone covering it over before it rotted and evaporated. It doesn’t take much imagination (if that were needed) to figure out the only rational process which could account for it.
The specific flaws of evolution are easy to point out but the effects on society of indoctrination with it are more subtle. Those effects are what make it worth confronting evolution.

[LIBRA]

It allows people to exclude the existence of God and supports the purveyance of humanism


I dont exclude the existence of God, but I also believe dinosaurs were real, fossils are real. The time lines given are accurate. Forensics works!

Creationism means no dinosaurs right, or that humans lived with the dinosaurs? And even if God created all living things, why cant those living things adapt for new environments (evolve). Plant species do, they adapt to thrive in different environments.

I dont discredit God at all or my faith in nature, but I also believe in science, and what it can discover.

[CowboyHippy]

so the earth really is flat?

and the sun orbits the earth?

[Crochety Carpenter]

so the earth really is flat?

and the sun orbits the earth?

The bible refutes both of those views and did so while "scientific consenses" supported them.

[Crochety Carpenter]

I dont exclude the existence of God, but I also believe dinosaurs were real, fossils are real. The time lines given are accurate. Forensics works!

Creationism means no dinosaurs right, or that humans lived with the dinosaurs? And even if God created all living things, why cant those living things adapt for new environments (evolve). Plant species do, they adapt to thrive in different environments.

I dont discredit God at all or my faith in nature, but I also believe in science, and what it can discover.

First, the Bible describes dinosaurs and drawings in caves depict dinosaurs so yes humans lived with dinosaurs.

http://creation.com/dragons-animals-not-apparitions

Second, forensics does work and supports a short timeline. Fossils do exist but they are formed rapidly or they would not.

http://creation.com/dinosaur-footprints-found-in-china
http://creation.com/civilization-comes-suddenly

Last, things do adapt but they do not change thier genetic code. They can only adapt with traits that already exist in thier genes.

http://creation.com/morphology-and-molecule-family-trees-conflict

Accurate views of origins matter.

http://creation.com/does-creation-really-matter

[Pedata]

I dont exclude the existence of God, but I also believe dinosaurs were real, fossils are real. The time lines given are accurate. Forensics works!

Creationism means no dinosaurs right, or that humans lived with the dinosaurs? And even if God created all living things, why cant those living things adapt for new environments (evolve). Plant species do, they adapt to thrive in different environments.

I dont discredit God at all or my faith in nature, but I also believe in science, and what it can discover.

A cranky old straight to the point pastor told me that the dinosaur and cavemen times where the first earth age. Fallen angels messed with the whole thing and God destroyed it and started over. Not everything died, some survived. Smaller dinosaurs did. And they evolved into birds. And chickens. Now we're all in the second earth age. Eternity with God will be the third earth age.
I think some look at the theory of evolution and say "See, there's no God because it happened this way.". But God made Adam out of clay. And one day to God is a very long time. So, I think evolution may be a very very tiny part of how God did it. Possibly. I really don't know. I'll know how it was all done when I leave this demesion and go into God's.

-Cass

[PEACE FROG]

Carpenter, I wasn't calling you the school yard bully type. Although I do think that you are passionate enough about your beliefs to get really excited and even lose your temper. Maybe, I don't know. I was refering to the hundreds and hundreds of loving believers who get easily frustrated with their inability to articulate what it is they want to say. Mostly I think it is because they were only told what is and isn't true, which is a hard belief to defend. The difference between me and you is that I will be the first to say "I don't Know". As previously stated I listen to different points of view and weigh the facts as as I recive them. Whatever resonates as truth is what I believe until presented with better imformation. Always passing through the filter of "what difference does it make"? Which is where I find myself now. So I don't know.... could have been a worldwide flood that covered dinosaurs in sediment. Could have been a meteor throwing tons of earth into the air blacking out the sun, covering dinosaur carcasses with dirt and causing an ice age. I don't know. BTW in the Exxon commercial the dinosaurs were not drowned in a flood they just kinda morphed into the ground although you keep presenting hard hitting evidence like that and I could be persuaded. Next topic; Noah's ark. How did he get all of the animals to come to him? I can't even get our cat to come half the time. How did carnavors co-exist with the others without snacking? How was the food kept and stored for such a long reriod of time? I also want to know how he knew to build it? Especially when such a vessel had never been concieved let alone "a flood". This is also part of the scientific flood story, so let's hear it. I really don't know.

[PEACE FROG]

A cranky old straight to the point pastor told me that the dinosaur and cavemen times where the first earth age. Fallen angels messed with the whole thing and God destroyed it and started over. Not everything died, some survived. Smaller dinosaurs did. And they evolved into birds. And chickens. Now we're all in the second earth age. Eternity with God will be the third earth age.
I think some look at the theory of evolution and say "See, there's no God because it happened this way.". But God made Adam out of clay. And one day to God is a very long time. So, I think evolution may be a very very tiny part of how God did it. Possibly. I really don't know. I'll know how it was all done when I leave this demesion and go into God's.

-Cass


Excellent!

[Pedata]

Maybe Noah took dna strands instead of the actual animals. That wouldn't take up as much room. And maybe the dna strands for unicorns didn't survive.

The cranky pastor also said that when God made woman the word curve (of the rib) referred to a dna strand. Makes sense. God created dna so he can use it how he wants to.

-Cass

[Pedata]

Oops, I misspoke. Ok. The word rib means curve in one of those ancient languages. And curve refers to dna strands.

-Cass

[PEACE FROG]

Interesting theory my friend. X Files meets CSI meets the Flintstones. LOL Hey I think we all could use a cranky old pastor.;)

[Pedata]

Interesting theory my friend. X Files meets CSI meets the Flintstones. LOL Hey I think we all could use a cranky old pastor.;)

LOL! You are funny:)
I like cranky old pastors. They are no ticklers of the ears.

And now I have the Flintstones theme song stuck in my head.....

-Cass

[LIBRA]

And now I have the Flintstones theme song stuck in my head.....

-Cass



And now so do I :D

[CowboyHippy]

sorta make me miss delta and that simplify your life guy

not really, they are on the ignore list too.

[Crochety Carpenter]

Well, at the risk of winding up on that ignore list, I continue. :hippie:

Cass, I like your cranky old pastor friend but there is nothing either scientific or Biblical in the theories you quote from him... kind of like evolution.

Froggy, while I do have pationate moments I'm not given to fits of irrationality. (At least as long as my ex leaves me alone...:D) As to your questions about Noah's Ark I'll list a couple of thoughts.

First, consider that prior to the flood even humans were told only to eat fruit and vegetables. Inspite of the consciensis that dinosaur teeth are carnivorous teeth consider the teath of fruit bats and similar known vegetarians.

Second, the animals need not have been mature. If you are looking to repopulate a world would you preserve adults partly or mostly through thier productive years? Also, it was only required that pairs of every "kind" be preserved such as equine (horses, zebras, donkeys, ect.), bovine (cattle, buffalo, musk ox, ect.), canine (wolves, dogs, coyotes, ect.). Natural selection DOES account for variations within a "kind".

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c013.html

As to "what does it matter?". Truth matters. In the absence of truth how can you say that war, or Collumbine, or rape, or infantacide, or anything else is wrong? Why respect? Why be generous? Why be unselfish? What gives any reason to any standard? That is why our society is declining and will eventually decline first to tyrany then to anarchy then to be over run by others.

[Pedata]

Well, it's like this- my cranky old pastor knows those old languages, latin, greek, amermaic (sp?). He has a PhD and has studied the original documents. So, I'm going to listen to him before anyone else. Without a teacher, picked by God, the bible is confusing and misunderstood.

-Cass

[PEACE FROG]

But Pedata, its on the internet it must be true.

[Pedata]

But Pedata, its on the internet it must be true.

Oh my, what was I thinking? lol ;)

-Cass

[Crochety Carpenter]

Ok, I'll quit. Never could deal with people with fingers in thier ears going "LALALALALALALALALA..." Been fun though. Good for entertainment. :D

[Pedata]

Ok, I'll quit. Never could deal with people with fingers in thier ears going "LALALALALALALALALA..." Been fun though. Good for entertainment. :D
Fingers in the ears?? Are you looking in a mirror?

[Crochety Carpenter]

Fingers in the ears?? Are you looking in a mirror?


I'm rubber you're glue... hehehehehe... ;)

[Pedata]

Thppppppppppppp!!!!!

(Sound it out)

-Cass

[PEACE FROG]

Carpenter I was just trying to get you to admit that you do not have all the answers. I guess you feel that you do. The "what does it matter" comment was exactly about the truth. If you don't continually question your own beliefs they become religion not truth. I don't mean defend your beliefs but question them. Put what you think is true to the fire so to speak. Unlearn then, Look at them "with the eyes of a child". If you are growing at all spiritually you would have a different point of view then when you poured your mental concrete around them. "When I was a child I spoke as a child, I thought as a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became a man I put childish things behind me". Try to break free of the dogma and seek answers from all beliefs as if, like a child you were hearing everything for the first time. I have hope that you are able to do this. If you did this and everything came to the same opinions and truths, great. But either way I think that you would be of renewed spirit, a more compassionate spirit and a more tolerent spirit.

[Crochety Carpenter]

Ed, You are, of course, absolutely right. I do what you say as a matter of course. That's why I hang out here instead of "Christian" sites. I also spend time on an astronamy site. I'm kind of looking for a good geology site. If I seem self assured it is because what I know I have tested. The things that I challenge are welcome to show me. I do not think that I know it all but what I do know has stood the test. The thing is that each time I raise questions and challenge the conventional wisdom I wind up with canned responses and personal attacks.

You speak of "break(ing) free of the dogma and seek(ing) answers..." yet most people just chant the dogma of thier public school indoctrination without examination or question. It is that that I challenge.

[Crochety Carpenter]

BTW here is a site you might enjoy...

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/

[PEACE FROG]

BTW here is a site you might enjoy...

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/

" If they can make you believe absurdities, they can make you committ attrocities". Votaire

[Crochety Carpenter]

" If they can make you believe absurdities, they can make you committ attrocities". Votaire

Absolutely correct!!! the problem arrises as to WHICH is the absurdity..."Goo to you" or "In the beginning God..." I see more attrocities every day as 'Goo to you." gains precidence.

The site I posted points out the absurdity of "Fightin' Fundies" and calls for a consistant faith. Kind of like Mad Magazene for religeous critics. Here's another one.

http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/

[Crochety Carpenter]

Here's a serious site that can give better answers than I can.... If you have an open mind.:hippie:

[PEACE FROG]

Absolutely correct!!! the problem arrises as to WHICH is the absurdity..."Goo to you" or "In the beginning God..." I see more attrocities every day as 'Goo to you." gains precidence.

The site I posted points out the absurdity of "Fightin' Fundies" and calls for a consistant faith. Kind of like Mad Magazene for religeous critics. Here's another one.

http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/

Ya it would be funny if it weren't so sad. Did you see the one on music? That fella did not seem to care who he was offending. Anyways, I really can't say that I've ever met anyone with your "Goo theory". Only people who say that that is what other people believe. Personally I think that there are more Pagans, New Agers, Buddists and Agnostics than "Goo people" in the world. I think if evolution was taught in school it is either because it doesn't favor any one faith so as not to offend. But inadvertently people of all faiths probably find it equally offensive.:D

[Crochety Carpenter]

Ya it would be funny if it weren't so sad. Did you see the one on music? That fella did not seem to care who he was offending. Anyways, I really can't say that I've ever met anyone with your "Goo theory". Only people who say that that is what other people believe. Personally I think that there are more Pagans, New Agers, Buddists and Agnostics than "Goo people" in the world. I think if evolution was taught in school it is either because it doesn't favor any one faith so as not to offend. But inadvertently people of all faiths probably find it equally offensive.:D

Evolution is defenatly taught in schools (If you challenge it in most universities you can forget getting a degree) but you are right about people of most faiths finding it offensive but most are unwilling to challenge it. As to not favoring any faith, it favors humanism and athieism which are clearly religeous beliefs as is evolutionism.