Abortion

[BandAide]

So, with women's rights being threatened by this new term with GWB, tell me what you REALLY think of abortion.

-What do you think about it personally?
-What do you think about it politically?
-and do you think Roe Vs. Wade is a strong foundation to protect a women's right's to her body?
-Do you think that we should give the fetus some rights?
-Do you still consider a fetus a person, but support abortion (which is my stand.)
-What do you think about femicide in countries like India and China where late term illegal abortions are often used to kill female fetuses?

As a person, I care about your opinions. As a women, I am effected by your opinions.

Act now!

[NeverNeverLand:)]

BandAid have u taken any mentalstimulants lately?
Cause I see a definate growth today,do the iqtest an beat the best:)

I´m for abortion,even thou it´s a bad thing to do,an hurts people that trying to avoid pain.

[LIBRA]

Well its an opionated subject and here is mine: We do have a right to decide what goes on with our bodies. I also think that a fetus is a human being right from conception and it wouldnt be a consideration for me, especially having a child I could not imagine if I would have chosen to kill him! BUT certain circumstances may have me question that, like rape maybe then, but even rape you can put the child up for adoption there are so many people who would love to have children and cant and I am sure they feel sickened by someone who could abort one. I really have mixed feelings on this one!

Personally- I would never ever have an abortion
Politcally- It should be ones own choice what they should do with there body, different circumstances call for different discions. and if they say its illegal to have an abortion then they will still be going on anyway Illegaly and more then likely not soon enough and unsafe for the women doing it.
Roe vs Wade- is a strong foundation of womens rights and there bodies, except it always has bothered me that she had to give birth to her child, poor kid had to grow up knowing that your mother went to supreme court to stop that from happening.
Fetus rights= human rights
a definitly think a fetus is a person
as far as femicide goes to kill female fetus's, one word- SICK!!!
so I guess I am pro choice I just hope women would choose not to!!

[mountain_mama]

I know this a very emotional subject so I usually tend to shy away from debates concerning abortions but as I watch with growing horror how GWB has been chipping away at womens rights I feel compelled to start raising my voice.

No matter what a YOUR own personal view on abortion is thier is still a seperation of church and state. I would like to see that remain in place. Do not confuse YOUR gods law with my law.

When you take away a womans right to control her reproductive descions you are stripping away her rights as a human being and her rights to control her life.

Abortions have been taking place scince women have been concieving. It is a very personal descion for a women and one I can not judge. There have been times in my life that I would never have thought I could choose abortion but now that I am older I relize that abortion could be an option for me as I have a greater responsibility to the children I already have. At this time in my life I would not be able to financially or emotionally support any more babies; furthermore, in this overpopulated world I think it is crazy to keep producing more and more people.

This is just my opnion. I know there are many who will disagree with me. I wish I could phrase what I am feeling with more eloquence but I have so many thoughts and feelings on this subject swirling around in my head that is hard for me to formulate all that I would like to say. :o

[BandAide]

Actually, I think this is a topic that most people feel conflicted about. I think that men often feel as though they "don't have a right" to comment, and women often fear their own hypocrisy. It's easy to contradict yourself because this is a subject where people often say, "I don't think it's okay, but I think it should be legally okay."

I also think that in this changing political climate we should be respectfully sharing our thoughts on the subject as to become very educated in the opinions and experiences of our peers. We should know where people are coming from in order to be informed people.

This shouldn't be about debate (which is generally what abortion topics become) but should rather be about information...

We've all got some...

Put it together and maybe we'll find some compromises and answers.

I do not think Roe vs. Wade is a strong foundation. I think it needs to be overturned and new abortion law needs to be implemented. I think that the fetus deserves rights, and currently has none because of the conditions of roe vs wade. If you murder an unborn child, you will not be charged with murder, but rather with assult to the mother.

I believe that we need to do something about this before GW does.

[Chaska_Dog]

I am most definitely pro-choice. I live in Canada, so this wouldn't affect me directly but I feel that all women should have a choice in this matter. Do people forget what it was like when abortions were illegal? It really wasn't so long ago.

Personally - I will tell you something I don't often share, not because I am regretful or ashamed but because there are many people who feel very strongly. I had an abortion several years ago at 10 weeks. At the time it was the right decision for me. I have since had another pregnancy and now we have a beautiful daughter.
I am ok with abortions performed in the first trimester, after that I do not agree at all. The only instance where a late-term abortion is even marginally ok with me would be if the fetus were terminally ill. Where i am from they are illegal after the first three months.

I know very little about the specific case that is being discussed so I can't share an opinion on that. I have read a few articles though.

I am undecided on whether the fetus should be given rights. To me there is a point where the fetus should be considered a person...but this is not until later in the pregnancy. For instance I do not consider a fetus in the first trimester to have any rights, but in the third I do.

The femicide issue - I'm not sure if anyone who hasn't been brought up in that kind of culture would agree with that. To me it is clearly wrong, as are all late-term abortions.

[LIBRA]

I guess I am uniformed on roe vs wade, I really dont know what the real outcomes or guidelines are and didnt know they still go by the same ones now, I just assumed it was a step for the rights of women, so yes your right information is key and I am all ears!!!!

[theREALsun]

i would have to say that i share similiar views with a few women around here
personally- i don't know, i can't imagine ever having an abortion, but i have never been faced with the question (birth control- whole new thread) i would like to say no. because of how much i love children and how i would think that i am responsible enough to deal with the consequences of my actions. and that things do happen for reasons..... i must say i try not to put myself in situations that would result in an unwanted child..... anymore. but i am only human, and i can only control so much of my external environment.
politically- PROCHOICE!!! it scares the hell out of me that they can tell me what to do and not do with my body.
fetus- this goes along with personally, i guess. i think from the moment of conception, but still support abortion. i can't expect everyone to believe the same as i do. so i suppose it is hypocrisy, but i rarely get offended by the word.
femicide- :bawl:
and mountain mama
This is just my opnion. I know there are many who will disagree with me. I wish I could phrase what I am feeling with more eloquence but I have so many thoughts and feelings on this subject swirling around in my head that is hard for me to formulate all that I would like to say.

we suffer from the same insanity today :D

[PEACE FROG]

Hot Potato!!! Okay, Personally I'd have to know the reason why someone wanted to do such a thing. Evidently I must be this persons confidant or it never would come up and I would not be privy to such info. In other words they asked so I'll tell. I might point out alternatives. Depends on the person and why. But personally no. Politically, the Government has no right to tell you what to do with your body or the consequences you will will deal with. I think Roe v Wade was decided by judges that had an agenda. I think judges are windsocks, they move with the wind of public opinion. There is'nt a Solomon among them. Fetus rights/ is a fetus a person. I have a spiritual problem with this and am not sure I wana go there. I will however say, we lost a baby once before my son was born * tear* and it (the event) wasnt "A nothing." Femacide (Bandaide you better laugh) I guess one would say then, there are a "whole lotta pricks running around there"!

[delta9]

In Sparta they used to throw babies off a cliff that were not "normal" and "strong". Post-birth abortion. That's murder.

Like Chaska, I have very little to no problem with first trimester abortions. Scientifically, to me, it's just not a person yet, but more like a parasite (in the strict scientific sense of the word, not at all the negative connotation most put with parasite). Not to belittle PEACE_FROG's loss, but I use miscarriages and such as a perfect example for this - these women are not said to be baby murderors. I can't remember which commedian it was, but... "If you're going to make abortion illegal, you might as well go the full route and start calling every woman over the age of 15 whose had their period a serial killer" or something along those lines.

For me, personally, abortion is a near-non-issue. I don't intend to be in a position for a kid to appear until I am ready for it. Now, if contraception fails and we do get a child on our hands, we'll talk about it and come to agreement. Where I am right now in my life, I could not possibly support a child (I'm already supporting myself and two other people!) so I would be pushing for early abortion or at "worst" late adoption.

In fact, one of these two people I am helping to support, a very good friend of mine, spiritual brother to me... Well, he got his girlfriend pregnant, and they are going to get an abortion. I am very pragmatic about it because we were very recently homeless, and this girl is far too young to have a baby now, not to mention a baby would be a hindrance to the things we are trying to do (like get into the Music Business - babies aren't meant for touring the country) in the semi-near future. So, as long as they hurry up about it, it is with my blessing.

I just can't think of bringing a child into a world where it would be, on some level, resented. I think children should be brought into the world when they can be wholly loved for who and what they are, as well as wholly cared for.

Politically, I think people should be allowed to make their own decisions about their bodies - just as with drugs and other things, it is not the government's place to say what should go on. I am completely fine with first trimester abortions. I have mixed feelings about second trimester abortions. I don't want to see ANY third trimester abortions - if it took them this long to decide they don't want it, they should go through the rest and give up for adoption.

I have to agree with PEACE_FROG about the judges... They'll "interpret" to what they think is best for the current political climate. There is no strong ground in court these days, unless you're with the majority :(

Femicide, that's horrid and unfair, and goes back to the Sparta thing, but it is their way. Each to their own and if nothing else maybe that will lead to re-revolution and furthering of women's rights.

I think this is the "right" way to do this debate, that is, tell about what YOU think and not get on what you think others SHOULD think. Peace :)

[Strawberry]

I'm by far pro-choice. I admittedly had two, yes, not just one but two abortions. And then I had my daughter. The immense amount of guilt that I still feel today is almost unbearable. I sit in my room and cry sometimes over what I had done. I often ask myself "why was it my choice?" but it was my choice. And even through all the guilt I feel, I know I did the right thing. My ex was abusive, physically and mentally. If I would have either of those two children to him, I would have never gotten him out of our lives. I did not want to willingly subject to innocent souls to his abusive, disgusting nature. I believed they were better off not being born that to have a man like him disrupting and ruining their lives. Adoption was out of the question seeing as he would've need to signed for the release and he never would have. So why then did I have a daughter when I was still young, not in a secure relationship, still in school and the babie's father was still married to someone else? Because I was putting my baby in danger by having it. There was no threat to it's well being by being born in those circumstances. All of them could've been and were overcome. So I think it's up to the mother. I don't think that a child should be born if the mother doesn't think the time is right. I also believe, and this is just a personal thing, that that first child I aborted had a soul. It's soul was passed to the next child that also ended in abortion. When I concieved our daughter, that same soul is who now inhabits our baby girl's body. Maybe it's just something I made up to help me cope, but that's what I believe.

Also, about contraception. I have a sever latex allergy so I couldn't use condoms. I wasn't on birth control till after the first pregnancy because I was young and immature and didn't want to tell my mother I was having sex. The second time, the bastard replaced my birth control pills with apsirin. He was an asshole who wanted to pass on his assholic genes.

That is all.

[Sunnydaydreams]

The second time, the bastard replaced my birth control pills with apsirin. He was an asshole who wanted to pass on his assholic genes.

That is all.

WTF?!?! thats insane! i dont think asshole is the right word honey!

my opinion is abortion should be legal. the gov't has no right telling the public what is moral & what isn't. personally, i wouldnt probably wouldnt have an abortion. i never know what the situation might be, but if something did happen, i would probably give the baby up for adoption or find a family for s/he before s/he is born. my lil sister is adopted so that would be my first option.

our country is "great" b/c of freedom from oppression, esp. relegious oppression. isnt that what forcing some church's morals onto a country is? if you dont like an abortion, fine, dont have one. dont force your decision upon others. thats why im prochoice.

peace & love

[BandAide]

For anyone who isn't too familiar with roe vs wade, here's what roe vs wade means:

Abortion is kept legal because the case roe vs wade faught to protect a womens right to choice under the 14th amendment of the constitution which protects privacy. So, a women's right to her body is not protected, but rather a women's right to privacy that is.

[treehugger]

I haven't contributed anything to this thread because I feel woefully inadequate expressing how I feel about this issue.

I really resent a governmental body telling me what I can do with MY body.

I resent the government entertaining ANYTHING that's religion based.

I had an abortion at age 15. I was very remorseful afterward. But...looking back over twenty years later, it was the right thing for me at the time.

Many of you...are young enough that you're younger than the baby I aborted. That is always on my mind.

Femicide...is a horrible thing. But....so is overpopulation. I think I have more of an issue with the fact that women are so devalued that the female fetuses are aborted because a male one is so much "better".

I'm sure I haven't covered every question...but this is about all I can articulate.

Kath

[orchid]

Personally: Abortions have been performed for ages… Probably as far back as the birth of humanity itself. Whether we humans approve or not, it will continue to go on. Having the choice to abort unwanted pregnancies saves the lives of those women who would otherwise forgo unsanitary, unsafe and illegal abortions. It should absolutely remain legal. When I stop and think of the overcrowded orphanages, the millions of neglected, hungry, and abused children that already exist in this world, I simply cannot fathom the idea of making abortion illegal.

Politically:I feel that abortion should not be a political subject, only a personal subject. Regardless, it’s deeply rooted in the landscape of American politics. The only government regulations I would suggest would be to limit unnecessary late term/partial birth abortions (by unnecessary, I mean in non-life threatening circumstances).

A fetus is absolutely a human being... There’s plenty of science to back that one up! And yes, I still support a woman’s right to choose. It sounds like a contradiction for sure, but this isn’t a simple issue.

The rights of a fetus: I have a lot of mixed feelings about this. Has anyone read much about the unborn victims of violence act? I think that some fetal rights could be good for our society (to an extent). But as it is now, it seems like a loaded gun waiting to go off in the face of Roe v/ Wade.

Roe v/ Wade: No. I don’t really feel that is sets a strong enough precedent.

Femicide: Now this down-right F*!ked up (please pardon the expletive)! I’m deeply disturbed by the idea of late term abortion as it is. To add the fact that they’re only killing females makes it even more brutal. Many parts of the word haven’t caught on to the idea that women are as valuable or intelligent as men. I don’t really get it. And, on top of this femicide issue, there are also women who are still being burned as witches in parts of India and South Africa. There’s female genital mutilation in parts of Africa, “kitchen accidents” in Pakistan, where women are burned to death in their own kitchens by their husbands, “honor killings” in many parts of South Asia and The Middle East, where women are tortured and killed for the slightest sexual indiscretion (expression). It’s all so insane.

My fingers are starting to get tired. I'm sure I could give myself carpal tunnell (sp?) from typing about this subject. There are just so many angles from which to look at it..

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Peace,

O

[BandAide]

[QUOTE=CowboyHippy]I a fetus is at a certain stage of development and the mother is murdered, the murderer can be tried for double homocide


I might be wrong about this, but I believe that you need to prove the fetus took a breath before it died, thus being born, in order to charge double homicide. Or, even homicide, for that matter. Pregnant women are at a high risk for abuse statistically and their babies die. But unless someone had removed the baby from the mother and the baby is able to take a breath, that person can not be charged with murder.

You might know some things that I don't.

If you know that there has been progress made here, tell me about it. I'm very interested to know.
:)

[mountain_mama]

Orchid, you hit the nail on the head for me. ;)

[gratefulgirl]

BandAide,
I think its different from state to state, but it got changed in California because of the Lacy Peterson case. Scott got charged with a double murder. :(

[BandAide]

I was actually wondering about the Lacy Peterson case because I knew that Scott was charged as such, but I wondered if they found water in the baby's lungs and that was why? (This turns my stomach to even write) but I thought when he killed Lacy, maybe she went into labor and the baby was born, only to die immediately. I mean, I know that the little guy was found before she was, which is one of the reasons I think that. It makes me sick. Sigh. Do you know for a fact that the law was changed?

[Strawberry]

I'm pretty sure the law was changed. If a fetus is over (I think) 24 weeks, it's a double homicide.. But yes, Anna... this makes me sick to write and read as well.. :(

[BandAide]

Hey,

I just checked into it and I'm going to paste my finding below because I think they'll be interesting to you all. The questions on the bottome are especially ineresting to me.

No wonder I haven't heard much, my state is not a state who has changed laws and given fetal protections. I notice that most libral states have remained detached from fetal homicide rights.

These states have fetal homicide laws where fetuses are victims at any stage of development:

o AZ
o ID
o IL
o LA
o MI
o MN
o MO
o ND
o NE
o ND
o OH
o PA
o SD
o UT
o WI

These states have fetal homicide laws where fetuses are victims at only specific stages in development:

o AR
o CA
o FL
o GA
o MA
o MS
o NV
o OK
o RI
o SC
o TN
o WA

The following states criminalize certain conduct that terminates pregnancies or causes miscarriages:

o IA
o IN
o KS
o NC
o NH
o NM
o VA

Argument For Fetal Homicide Laws:

Fetal homicide laws have been described as supporting and protecting women who decide to carry their babies to term. Those supporting these acts, most often pro-life advocates, say that both the lives of the pregnant woman and the fetus should be explicitly protected. They declare that fetal homicide laws justly criminalize cases and provide the opportunity to protect unborn children and their mothers. Some pro-lifers hope fetal homicide laws will establish a precedent that fetuses are human beings, thereby fueling efforts to reverse the U.S. Supreme Court's 1973 Roe v. Wade decision that legalized abortion.

Argument Against Fetal Homicide Laws:

Those against fetal homicide laws fear that laws to protect a fetus could infringe on a woman's right to choose an abortion. Pro-choice leaders say these laws grant a fetus legal status distinct from the pregnant woman - possibly creating an adversarial relationship between a woman and her baby. Those against these laws are also concerned as to whether they could be interpreted to apply to a woman's behavior during her pregnancy, such as smoking, drinking or using illegal drugs. Instead, they prefer to criminalize an assault on a pregnant woman and recognize her as the only victim.

Current Status:

The most recent case involving fetal homicide laws is that of the Laci Peterson homicide. Her husband, Scott Peterson was convicted in November, 2004 by a California jury. Peterson could get the death penalty for the count of first-degree murder for killing his wife and the count of second-degree murder for killing their unborn child. Lacy Peterson was in her 8th month of pregnancy when she disappeared. Under California law, murder charges can result if the fetus is older than seven weeks. To convict Peterson of murdering his unborn son, prosecutors had to prove that he intended to kill the fetus or knew that it would die as a result of his wife's death.

There has been debate on both sides of this issue. "If this is murder, well, then any time a late-term fetus is aborted, they could call it murder," Morris County NOW President Mavra Stark told reporters. Marie Tasy, public and legislative affairs director for New Jersey Right To Life, counters that a double-murder charge against Scott Peterson is appropriate.

Food for Thought:

* If a woman can choose to have a late-term abortion, should the father have the same right to kill the baby before it is born?
* If a woman is scheduled to get an abortion, but the baby is killed in-utero by an outside person the day before that abortion, should that person be charged with murder? [/ul[

[BandAide]

Personally: Abortions have been performed for ages… Probably as far back as the birth of humanity itself. Whether we humans approve or not, it will continue to go on. Having the choice to abort unwanted pregnancies saves the lives of those women who would otherwise forgo unsanitary, unsafe and illegal abortions. It should absolutely remain legal. When I stop and think of the overcrowded orphanages, the millions of neglected, hungry, and abused children that already exist in this world, I simply cannot fathom the idea of making abortion illegal.

Politically:I feel that abortion should not be a political subject, only a personal subject. Regardless, it’s deeply rooted in the landscape of American politics. The only government regulations I would suggest would be to limit unnecessary late term/partial birth abortions (by unnecessary, I mean in non-life threatening circumstances).

A fetus is absolutely a human being... There’s plenty of science to back that one up! And yes, I still support a woman’s right to choose. It sounds like a contradiction for sure, but this isn’t a simple issue.

The rights of a fetus: I have a lot of mixed feelings about this. Has anyone read much about the unborn victims of violence act? I think that some fetal rights could be good for our society (to an extent). But as it is now, it seems like a loaded gun waiting to go off in the face of Roe v/ Wade.

Roe v/ Wade: No. I don’t really feel that is sets a strong enough precedent.

Femicide: Now this down-right F*!ked up (please pardon the expletive)! I’m deeply disturbed by the idea of late term abortion as it is. To add the fact that they’re only killing females makes it even more brutal. Many parts of the word haven’t caught on to the idea that women are as valuable or intelligent as men. I don’t really get it. And, on top of this femicide issue, there are also women who are still being burned as witches in parts of India and South Africa. There’s female genital mutilation in parts of Africa, “kitchen accidents” in Pakistan, where women are burned to death in their own kitchens by their husbands, “honor killings” in many parts of South Asia and The Middle East, where women are tortured and killed for the slightest sexual indiscretion (expression). It’s all so insane.

My fingers are starting to get tired. I'm sure I could give myself carpal tunnell (sp?) from typing about this subject. There are just so many angles from which to look at it..

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Peace,

O


Sorry to post AGAIN under this topic, but I meant to comment on Orchids post earlier and say how much I appreciated the nature of it!

[orchid]

Cheers BandAide! Thanks for posting such excellent questions.

-Orchid

[freakyfairy]

this debate is one i've been thinking about alot lately.....
i think that all women should have the right to make their own decision but i personally would hate myself if i ever even considered going through with an abortion...all my friends are trying to change my mind about this 'for my own good'....
i can't do it though.....it's MURDER!...

[LIBRA]

freaky are you pregnant????

[freakyfairy]

not 100% sure yet, but it looks very probable...
i'm not sure whether it's good or bad...probably bad since the father is my ex...i'm 17...i still live with my folks..... i'll let y'all know when i know for sure...

[freakyfairy]

sigh
I love my little baby boy
this is what he thinks of abortion
http://www.geocities.com/norville454/alextongue2.jpg

your baby is sooooo adoraable by the way.... awwww :)

[Strawberry]

Freaky, I know how you feel if you are pregnant. But let me tell you, it's alot better to live a difficult life with a beautiful child you love then to lead an "easy" life with the guilt. It will eat you up. At least, that's what it did to me.

[BandAide]

Hey FF,

Are you late for your period? What makes you think you're pregnant?

If you are, I'd be happy to help you find resourses to help you. It CAN be done and it can be done well. You have a few steady options before you and you should avoid allowing anyone making you feel any particular way. You've gotta trust your heart on this one.

[freakyfairy]

Freaky, I know how you feel if you are pregnant. But let me tell you, it's alot better to live a difficult life with a beautiful child you love then to lead an "easy" life with the guilt. It will eat you up. At least, that's what it did to me.

thanks so much strawberry....that is exactly how i feel, but no-one can see it that way...they're all like 'you're ruining your life...'

and thanks band aide....yeah i'm late for my period...and it is entirely likely that i am pregnant since after a party me and my ex were drunk...etc... :o
anyay...i totally don't believe in abortion so i will ahve to have a kid and deal with it...

[LIBRA]

children dont ruin lives they make them worth living!!!!
I love being a mother ya at first I was selfish and thought oh my god how am I gonna do anything but I do so much more now thats worth doing, drinking and drugs and partying I used to think was fun, now its a waste of my time the little time I have to spend with an awesome little man that I created!!
being a mother is my favorite pastime if I had a good man to have more with I would have lots of kids!!!
cowboy, your son is going to be a good man !! and a damn cute one too!!!

[theREALsun]

cowboy... those pics are great!!

ff, why don't you just find out? just make the best decision for you, and not so sound like I am probably going to.... alcohol is not worth it.
at least from my experience.... and I, :o , unfortunately have more than i like to admit....

just take care of yourself, good luck :)

[mountain_mama]

I want to start off by saying that I respect all of the thoughts and opnions of all of the people who have posted here and I mean no offense to anyone by the following post...

freaky, I was faced with the same decsions you were when I found myself pregnant at age 16 and I don't think I would change a thing about the choice I made to have and raise and love my daughter BUT it has been by far the most difficult choice I have ever had to live with. The joy has not only been all consuming at times but almost unbearable, as if I could shatter from happiness; never the less, the pain and grief of not being able to provide and at times having to give up custody to the father when I just could not make it has just as equally held my heart hostage. I would like to say that it is very easy for people to proclaim what they would do and just as easy to slip out words that tell you what you should do, even though in the end you will find yourself alone in the company of your choice.
Now that you have read and considered what others have had to say about the guilt and pain of aborting an unplanned pregnancy I would like to talk about the guilt, pain and shame of seeing one through.

Guilt is watering down the milk yet another time because there is no money for more.
Guilt is not providing proper immunizations because you don't even have the $10 to pay the free clinic.
Guilt is poor childcare because you can not get better on the money you make.
Pain is hearing your baby call her daycare worker mommy because you are gone so much, working like a dog at two jobs for minium wages.
Pain is the ever present fear that your next step will be homeless.
Pain is the hunger you feel when you begin to skip meals to provide enough food to feed your baby.
Shame is standing in line with food stamps.
Shame is begging for rides on the bus when you have no more money.
Shame is being berated by your boss when your clothes don't meet the fashion standard or quality expected from workers in your office.
Shame is living in apartments so infested and run down that you never invite your family or friends over.

Guilt, pain and shame are what you feel when you join the military to escape all of these things and the tiny voice at the end of the telephone wire rips your heart out when it sobs," Mommy, when will you be home? Mommy, why did you have to leave me? I miss you...please come back".

These things are what shaped my reality. If given a choice to turn back time I would not change a thing. I would still choose the guilt, pain and shame. I selfishly love my daughter beyond all emotions;however, I would never have brought in another under those circumstances. There were times when I had scares and each time I knew without a doubt in my heart I would rather abort than have more babies because as it was I have had to fight and claw my way out of my chosen pit of poverty. It the took me ten years to have another baby because I waited until I felt emotionaly mature, financialy secure and the right mate to share all of the wonders, joys and sorrows of parenting. These are things that are important and should not be discounted when making a descion to keep a child. I know because I have been on both sides of the fence.

WOW what a rant..I am sorry for all of the spelling errors and for this being so long. :o I just wanted to share a different view point...

[mamasharones]

Seeing as though I have had an abortion I'm VERY prochoice. I think you should be able to decide what goes on in your body. and if it is outlawed there's going to be desperate women trying to get rid of their babies in an unsafe way, and you can't make people have their babies. I think if you chose to have an abortion it should be for the right reasons. If you just simply don't want to deal with the consquences that's no reason for putting yourself at risk like that. I chose to have an abortion because I was in a really messed up relationship with a heroin addict and didn't know it. He gave it to me, I rolled on ecstacy, and was drinking and smoking pot, opium while pregnant (but didn't know I was) plus I was on medication that wasn't supposed to be taken by a pregnant women in her first trimester. I was also 17 yrs old. I learned my lesson and it was a tramatic one. therefore never would I ever do it again nor recommend it to anyone. Life is precious but only if you can give your child a good start. They didn't ask to be brought in this world I think they deserve a clean slate. I don't think the government should interfere with these types of decision although I think there should be a limit to how many of these procedures get done on a single person per lifetime.

[LIBRA]

mountain mama,
that was so touching and heart renching I am still crying, you are one tough mama and have been through so much, I am fighting to make my situation work but not at all like you have, your experience has made me realize its not so bad, not about being a mother I love that I just mean money and making ends meet, buying milk not asking for help or assistance no health insurance ya it all is hard but it could always be alot harder, I will always remember that!! so in away thanks!! and I am so sorry you had to feel all those things but by the sounds it made you an awesome person and mom!!

[theREALsun]

whoa.... mountain mama, i am almost speechless
and i say almost, because i always have something to say :o ,

but my goodness...... that was incredible
you know i kind of knew you were a kindred spirit....
but that was honest and raw and heartfelt......
you really ARE an admirable woman.....

thanks so much for sharing
and you are SO right that you can't possibly know unless you have been faced with such decisions......
hmmm..... (you are very well-written as well ;) )

:D

[freakyfairy]

mountain mama...you brought tears to my eyes.....
thank you all so much for your advice and opinions..... :group_hug

[BandAide]

Mountain Mama!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

Deep Breath!

You have clearly experienced love on such deep levels that I can only wonder what it is to be so experienced. The pain it takes to get there is not worth re-living, and yet the rewards are great!

We've never even met and I am so proud of you.

[Strawberry]

*swallows* wow.... Mountain Mama... phew... Libra is right, I always thought I had it rough... *sigh* I hope the lemonade is sweet because you have sure had enough lemons. I admire your strength and the obvious love you have for your child. It makes me proud to be a woman when "we" have representatives like you out there...

Also... Freaky!! C'mon.. are you preggies or not?!?! ... sorry... :o don't mean to be prying into your private life but I'm dying to know!!

[Dead Fan]

I used to be completely against abortion. But i can never have a baby, im a man so i guess abortion isnt a bad thing if its done early like delta said, before its human. Personnaly i believe abortion is fine in the case of rape, or your father or somebody else in your family is a complete pervert and nocks up his daughter. But as far as people just skrewing around if you want to play you have to pay. But on the other hand if a person cant raise a child then they shouldnt be doing it in the first place.

[BandAide]

Hey Dead Fan,

So, you don't think that people should be having sex unless they're ready for parenthood?

That's an interesting perspective.

Also, when you say "if you want to play you've gotta pay," I have to disagree. See, the one "paying" is the unwanted child, right? I mean, ideally, all people who get pregnant would become loving, dutiful parents, but that's not realistic. So, the children end up paying the price.

[toman]

I think this is an issue that is very, very tired, and I think people are going to have to agree to disagree. Normaly I wouldn't even comment on the issue, but seeing as we're an open minded bunch who doesn't like to argue much, I will. :) In my opinion, abortion is wrong. In my opinion, telling a woman she can't have an abortion is wrong too. I believe there are cases where abortion is a legitmate option, and as unfortunate as it is, it is in the best interest of all involved that it be done. That said, in this day and age I think there are very, very few instances that come under that situation. For a woman to become pregnant when she (with or without a partner) is not 100% prepared and qualified to raise a child is absolutely one of the most irresponsible things a person can do, in my opinion, both for herself and the child. It is almost always a waste of two lives. So I say yes, abortion should be legal. But that doesn't make it right, acceptable, a topic for dinner table conversation, or something that should even be considered as anything but an absolute last resort.

[kermit]

News flash: Abortion doesn't kill people. Unaborted babies kill people. (http://taken5.com/article.php?story=20050321132104177)

[toman]

^^^ What the hell? Did you just pull that out of your ass? I'm usually the first one in on a joke, but that shit's not even funny. Bad taste, man.

[kermit]

a different view is no joke!

I am different do you not digg?

[RockyJay]

I am different do you not digg?

I got that a long time ago man.

[kermit]

do u not digg ??? :confused: :( :cheers:

[toman]

I think you have some problems, and that post was inappropriate. I'm not going to comment on it again.

[freakyfairy]

you know what? i haven't been so offended in ages..... kermit...that was out of order..... think about all the charity workers and geniuses...they're unaborted foetuses too.... so there are some bad people in the world....big deal....what are you suggesting that we shoud abort every baby just in case they turn out to be a murderer?!!!
i need to calm down...youve made me angry./....

[PEACE FROG]

I agree with all of you, thing is, although Kermit's name is on that little gem I'm pretty sure he is not the author of that garbage. I have never seen a post by Kermit where there is'nt at least one mispelled word per sentance. Most of the idiocy posted by Kermit is incoherant child-like babble, though he claims to be a mensa member, I find Kermit to be a post whoring troll, a bully, a whinner, and an UGLY LITTLE BASTARD who needs to disappear. You people who know me, know me to be a kind man. Sorry for being so harsh but enough is enough.

[Pedata]

Well, from what everyone's said, I'm glad I didn't go look at it, whatever it is.


I think Kermit has some imagination and brains. But he has no control. No direction. Without control there is just a bunch of silly nonsense. A waste of brain power.

He also seems to have a need to prove to everyone how smart he is. As if he's waiting for people to applaud his efforts and give him compliments.

I think he needs to outgrow some childishness.

Peace,
Cassandra

[mamasharones]

News flash: Abortion doesn't kill people. Unaborted babies kill people. (http://taken5.com/article.php?story=20050321132104177)

That is about the stupidest, self centered, and vulgar thing I've ever heard. I know you claim to be different and that's cool but there's a difference between being differently unique and just plain WEIRD!

and then you wonder why we don't like some of your post? Maybe cause you just made everyone's hard work in raising their children a sick joke! Raising children is hard and I'm sure you don't have the balls to do it.... and maybe that's a good thing

[mamasharones]

sorry if that was a bit harsh but damn....that was wrong

[Pedata]

You Know what???


Young children love attention, even if it's bad attention. As long as they've got attention. That's all that matters.

And they will do anything to get, and keep, that attention.

I'm talking to everyone except kermit.

Peace,
Cass

[Sagaro]

I think that abortion is confusing... because yes it is the woman's body but it takes two to do the horizontal mambo if you catch my drift.

So therefore I've never understood why its soley the woman's decision. Many animals mate for life "mate" so when humans have sex they should automatically get married. That's what I think we should do.

P.S. sorry if i anger anyone I'm kind of a radical hippie!

[toman]

I think we need to start growing our engineered master race of offspring in genetic farms, thus eliminating the need for the rather distasteful organic process. But that's another thread...

[RockyJay]

If ever I get someone pregnant and she doesn't want the baby, I'm going to keep the baby. If the woman has a medical condition where she could possibly die, I will exhaust every possible means to save both her and the baby, last resort would be abortion.

If I ever get someone pregnant, the decision will be ours, not just hers because I did contribute to the events leading to the pregnancy. :p

[Herbmama]

I've tried really hard to stay out of this topic...usually it just isn't even worth debating...people believe what they believe so why fight about it?

What I can't stand is men complaining about not having a say in the matter...or claiming that they WILL have a say in it if they ever knock a girl up.

You won't.

You can explain what your beliefs and wishes are, but ultimately it will and should fall on the women to choose to carry the baby to term...or not.

For the men folk, you have your set of choices reguarding what you do with your body:

You can choose to have sex, or not

You can choose to use protection, or not

You can choose to stand by and be a father, or walk away.

The choices of the male involved carry no more and no less power, no more and no less pain, no more and no less honor than the choices of the female involved, they're just differant.

Know what you have the choice to do or not do, claim the power and responsiblity of those choices and allow women to do the same.

[treehugger]

I've tried really hard to stay out of this topic...usually it just isn't even worth debating...people believe what they believe so why fight about it?

What I can't stand is men complaining about not having a say in the matter...or claiming that they WILL have a say in it if they ever knock a girl up.

You won't.

You can explain what your beliefs and wishes are, but ultimately it will and should fall on the women to choose to carry the baby to term...or not.

For the men folk, you have your set of choices reguarding what you do with your body:

You can choose to have sex, or not

You can choose to use protection, or not

You can choose to stand by and be a father, or walk away.

The choices of the male involved carry no more and no less power, no more and no less pain, no more and no less honor than the choices of the female involved, they're just differant.

Know what you have the choice to do or not do, claim the power and responsiblity of those choices and allow women to do the same.

I totally agree with you, Herbmama. :)

Kath

[BandAide]

And so does the American judicial system.

[waking_dreams]

this has really gotten to be a heated debate, and not to sound mean or anything, but alot of it seems to stem from some dumbass's remark.

[kermit]

http://www.geocities.com/norville454/alextongue2.jpg

your baby is sooooo adoraable by the way.... awwww :)

Above and beyond what you all may think of me. I never "taint" midns of kids I am an uncle 4 times over and like the extreem of everything. not for fun! but because If I do not learn new info everyday, then I am not learning only rehashing.

my best friend is forbidin to see his 2 yr ol girl and it makes me almost cry, but frogs don't cry they piss on everything..

(......"on the paper, on the paper".......)

AND THAT KID IS F**K3N CUTE! just like the one in this pic!

must be good genes ...
(bad sp.. got the comment. howerd stern me why don't ya!)

:kngt:

P.S. Kids teach me new things everyday! kermit will be a daddy! SOON! :cheers:

[tooter_mcgee]

Freakyfairy has a kid? I thought she lost it... or did she have one before? I think i've missed out on something here...

Di

[treehugger]

I think that post by freaky fairy was a quote of Cowboy Hippie's post a while back, which included a picture of HIS kid.

[freakyfairy]

yeah...it's not my kid....i was preggers but i lost it....

[Taalib]

Hey Dead Fan,

So, you don't think that people should be having sex unless they're ready for parenthood?

That's an interesting perspective.




BandAide I am not particularly taking Dead Fans side here but, don't you think that if you aren't taking the proper steps to NOT get pregnant then you should be prepared to be parents? I hope that I don't offend anyone here with my thoughts on the subject and if I do I will apologize up front. To me abortion is murder, it is the taking or preventing of life to continue. Granted if the world was perfect there would be no need for abortions, all of us would be responsible enough to prevent unwanted pregnancies from happening, and we would all be wonderful, loving parents. Unfortuneatly this is not the case but even so, does this give us the right to commit murder? I think that most people agree that morally it is wrong but some people don't want to be told what they can and can't do with their body and that is why there is a big argument. I don't think it has as much to do with the actual life of the fetus/child than it does with women being pushed around by the government. I think that in the situations of Rape and the risk of death to the woman, then the right to choose should be left up to the woman. Any other situation such as, hey I was too irresponsible to prevent this from happening, then deal with it. If you don't want the child, give the child to someone who would love to watch he or she blossom into their own person. We have prisons for people who are irresponsible and make bad decisions, they are held accountable why can't people who make bad decisions when it comes to sex be held accountable? My mother and father had me when they were 16 and I am sure they struggled, well atleast my dad (my mother ran off), but you know he did the best he could do and for that I love and respect him. No amount of toys, clothes or money would make me love him more because that stuff doesn't matter. I believe that as long as you try then there will always be a way, it is a matter of how strong you are. Just because you got drunk, forgot to take your pill or break out when a condom touches you is no excuse to prevent a child from entering this world. With all the talk of animal rights, being natural with your bushy armpits and hairy legs, I thought that you guys were all about love and life, wtf? For all of you women out there who were faced with the situation of what to do and made the decision to stick it out and raise the child the best that you could, I have nothing but love, respect and admiration for you all. Yeah times may be tough but that is what makes us into the people that we are, you can either be weak or you can be strong. Sometimes choice isn't always in the best interest of others and if the person has already made a wrong choice (unprotected sex), then why allow them another?

[BandAide]

"BandAide I am not particularly taking Dead Fans side here but, don't you think that if you aren't taking the proper steps to NOT get pregnant then you should be prepared to be parents?"

Yes, I do. I think that people should be responsible. BUT, accidents certainly happens and birth control sometimes fails. As a matter of fact, the failure of my birth control pills gave me the beautiful gift of my 11 month old daughter. I happened to be in a position where I was ready to be a mother. I had a boyfriend who I planned to (and did) marry, a college degree, a job and a lot of support from an encouraging, proud family. Lots of sexually active people are not in this position.

Some women are young, uneducated and misinformed when they become pregnant. Some women are educated, informed and careful, yet they still become pregnant.

I do not think that people who do not want children should be having them. And I think that the fact that they do is why our systems are so overcrowded with foster, abused and neglected children.

Also, sadly, white babies are the babies who people want to adopt. Minority babies are not as adoptable. And as we all know, white people are not the only people having abortions.