Circumcision?

[Herbmama]

I was wondering if any of you had given any thought to the political or ethic issues surrounding circumcision?

For the parents out there what informed or influenced your choice?

Do you think medicaid should cover eclective circumcision?

For me circumcision was a nonissue. I birthed at home, so circumcision never really came up. In hind sight I'm glad that my son is intact, but at the time of his birth I had never really given it much thought. Since then I've come to see it as a human right issue...but I recognize that isn't really the norm.

I guess I'm really just curious if it's even a bleep on anyone else's radar? :confused:

[toman]

I think it's a huge issue. As some here may or may not know, I'm very interested in various sorts of body modification, including genital modification. Because of this, I'm very open to people doing whatever the hell they want with various parts of their bodies, including lopping bits and pieces off. But I feel very stongly that modifying the body is something the individual MUST have power over. To have someone remove part of your body, let alone your genitals, can be a huge issue for people, and given all the medical knowledge we now posess there is absolutely no legitimate reason to circumise children of either gender.

Another related issue is that of the discrimination between male genital mutilation and female genital mutilation. There is virtually no place left in the world where female circumsision is legal these days, because it is almost universally considered mutilation. And yet, in the most educated country in the world we cut off male children's genitals every single day for no reason.

Modifying your children's bodies in today's culture is wrong. It doesn't matter if it's cutting off foreskin, labia, a clitoris, or piercing a baby's ears, it's only a matter of degree and none of it is acceptable.

[2veggiebabes]

I have two boys both are circumcised. This was a very difficult decision for me. I contemplated on this during my entire pregnancy.
I am a nurse and have seen seen many elderly persons with poor care and I helped two boys ages 15 and 16 recover after surgery for their circumcision. (they wanted this done and there families supported their decision) The recovery for the older boys was extremely difficult and painful. My friends five year old pulled the skin back to far and had to go to the doctor in order to pull it back into place. This was also a long painful healing. So I decided to do the procedure.
I did however find a wonderful doctor that preformed a almost painless circumcision. He numbed the area and my babes did not cry during the procedure. Recovery did not seem to effect them as well. He did not remove All the forskin only the tip.
I however am the abnormal one in the group of friends I have, because my boys are the only ones circumcised. :o

[Herbmama]

Another related issue is that of the discrimination between male genital mutilation and female genital mutilation. There is virtually no place left in the world where female circumsision is legal these days, because it is almost universally considered mutilation. And yet, in the most educated country in the world we cut off male children's genitals every single day for no reason.

Modifying your children's bodies in today's culture is wrong. It doesn't matter if it's cutting off foreskin, labia, a clitoris, or piercing a baby's ears, it's only a matter of degree and none of it is acceptable.


This is something I agree with. It blows me away that what is illegal on little girls is not only common practice on little boys, but in many states paid for by our tax dollars.

Does Medicaid cover any other cosmetic procedures?

[Herbmama]

I have two boys both are circumcised. This was a very difficult decision for me. I contemplated on this during my entire pregnancy.
I am a nurse and have seen seen many elderly persons with poor care and I helped two boys ages 15 and 16 recover after surgery for their circumcision. (they wanted this done and there families supported their decision) The recovery for the older boys was extremely difficult and painful. My friends five year old pulled the skin back to far and had to go to the doctor in order to pull it back into place. This was also a long painful healing. So I decided to do the procedure.
:o

2veggie, I promise I'm not trying to attack you I just have a couple of questions.

I was confused by the comment of seeing elderly people with poor care...do you mean no one's cleaning under the old guys foreskins? If this is the case...are you also concerned about the little old ladies labia's? Should be be doing something to make sure little old ladies are taken care of as well as circumcised men?

For the 15 and 16 year old....really, the mama in me keeps asking if those kids were even OLD enough to have made that choice..I can't see letting a 15 or 16 year old daughter get breast implants or any other elective surgery, KWIM?

As a nurse what's your take on AAP'd statement on infant circumcision and should medicaid cover elective circumcision?

As for the 5 year old...YOUCH! Poor little guy! I've never heard of a child forcably retracting themself :( most kids won't pull back beyond the point of pain.

[BandAide]

I am very confused about this subject.

I understand that there is no medical reason to have boys circumsized, but I also understand that it is healthy socially and sexually for a boy to have a penis that looks like his Dad's.

I have my ultrasound to find out if I'm having a boy or a girl on Wed. and I've been agonizing about what to do regarding circumcision if I have a boy.

Though I do not have an opinion regarding the matter yet, I would like to touch on the difference between female circumcision and male circumcision. The two are very different procedures. Countries that practice female circumcision often use blunt objects and offer no medical care. Women are circumcized to dull the nerve endings in the clitorus, thus making it impossible for them to derrive pleasure from sex. Because this is not cared for medically, little girls frequently die from the procedure. Men are circumcized for aesthetics only. There is little risk of death or even complications is slim. You can't really compare the two, other than that they are both altering the genitals. But the function, purpose and result of both is different.

[RockyJay]

It was a long established rite of passage from being a boy to becoming a man. I wasn't given the choice, it was something I must go through, otherwise I would have been teased as "supot" roughly translated "bagged" because the foreskin resembles it or a sissy as circumcision back in the day is in par with the word pain. Great pain I experienced, I still remember the exact date and time and the doctors words that said it would only hurt like a bite of a tiny ant. After the medication wore off, it felt I was bitten by an ant with a sharks jaw.

People here assume that if a man is "supot" he could be "undesirable" because of the foreskin, and an uncircumsized man would have trouble concieving.

Since I no longer have a foreskin, I can't say I miss it. But, on the things I have learned that the untouched man is more "sensitive" on those areas, and could possibly enjoy the act of copulation more, well, mine is more aesthetically pleasing. :p And I don't spend more time cleaning, as uncircumsized men are more prone to things undesirable happening to their tools if not properly cleaned.

[Herbmama]

I am very confused about this subject.

I understand that there is no medical reason to have boys circumsized, but I also understand that it is healthy socially and sexually for a boy to have a penis that looks like his Dad's.

I have my ultrasound to find out if I'm having a boy or a girl on Wed. and I've been agonizing about what to do regarding circumcision if I have a boy.

Though I do not have an opinion regarding the matter yet, I would like to touch on the difference between female circumcision and male circumcision. The two are very different procedures. Countries that practice female circumcision often use blunt objects and offer no medical care. Women are circumcized to dull the nerve endings in the clitorus, thus making it impossible for them to derrive pleasure from sex. Because this is not cared for medically, little girls frequently die from the procedure. Men are circumcized for aesthetics only. There is little risk of death or even complications is slim. You can't really compare the two, other than that they are both altering the genitals. But the function, purpose and result of both is different.

There are certainly physical differances in male and female circumcision...as well as differant psychological and political issues. I certainly wouldn't try to compare western circumcision to infibulation (the removal of the external clitorus and scrapping and stitching the labia closed).

As you know I'm a single mama to the father son matching penis issue doesn'[t effect our little family...I'm not sure how others handle that, but I don't think it would really be that big of a deal...maybe some of the guys here could comment on that?

An interesting note...here in the west medical circumcision (not the Jewish Bris) became popular in victorian times as a way to dull sexual pleasure and thus prevent masturbation (we all see how well that worked out ;) )

[Herbmama]

It was a long established rite of passage from being a boy to becoming a man. I wasn't given the choice, it was something I must go through, otherwise I would have been teased as "supot" roughly translated "bagged" because the foreskin resembles it or a sissy as circumcision back in the day is in par with the word pain. Great pain I experienced, I still remember the exact date and time and the doctors words that said it would only hurt like a bite of a tiny ant. After the medication wore off, it felt I was bitten by an ant with a sharks jaw.

People here assume that if a man is "supot" he could be "undesirable" because of the foreskin, and an uncircumsized man would have trouble concieving.

Since I no longer have a foreskin, I can't say I miss it. But, on the things I have learned that the untouched man is more "sensitive" on those areas, and could possibly enjoy the act of copulation more, well, mine is more aesthetically pleasing. :p And I don't spend more time cleaning, as uncircumsized men are more prone to things undesirable happening to their tools if not properly cleaned.

RockyJay, thanks for showing us a differant cultural view..can I ask how old you were when you were circumcised?

[RockyJay]

RockyJay, thanks for showing us a differant cultural view..can I ask how old you were when you were circumcised?

Almost 13.

[toman]

Male and female children have been circumcised in the same conditions for thousands of years. It is most commonly believed that female circumcision is something only done in a mud hut someplace, with a broken bottle while male circumcision is a simple litle procedure done on male children at a young age. Either procedure can be perfored in either setting, and has been. In this country it is illegal for a female child to be circumcised, and in some states this is taken so seriously these laws prevent women of any age from modifying their own genitals in any way, or having them modified. In this country we have laws in order to protect people, and children above the rest. As long as these laws and practices regarding circumcision and genital mutilation exist, we are not free people. As long as an adult is not allowed to seek a practitioner to modify his or her genitals, while that same specialist makes a living modifying the genitals of unwilling, uninformed children, we live in a state that is every bit as backward and moraly corrupt as one that mutilates girls genitals with broken glass.

[2veggiebabes]

Herbmama,

I do not feel attacked at all. I think the more questions or comments the better informed!

Yes the overall care for both men and woman was shocking when they would be addmitted to the hospital from nursing homes. I was horrified and all I could do is care for them as I would like to be cared for. I only addressed the males because of the issue we were discussing. Nurse aids are taught proper care of both male and female genitals sadly some aids do not follow procedure.

I understand your concerns with the teenage boys.

I reviewed the AAP's statement and I would encourage parents to read this study as well as research other like studies in order to make the decision that is right for their family.

I do believe that medicaid should cover elective circumcision. Regardless of the reasoning for wanting the surgery (hygienic or cosmetic) The person feels so strongly that they want to experience the extremely painful healing process they should be able to do so.

And for my friends 5 year old I agree I had never herd of anything like that before. When we all had a play date together and he went to the potty I just wanted to cry. The poor fellow was in so much pain. However happy as can be now!

[BandAide]

Today, when I found out that I'll be having a girl, I breathed a sigh of relief because I'll never have to decide this.

[toman]

^^^ Actually, others made the decision for you and you went along with it.

[BandAide]

"riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggggggggh hhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttttt..."

[mamasharones]

2veggie, I promise I'm not trying to attack you I just have a couple of questions.

I was confused by the comment of seeing elderly people with poor care...do you mean no one's cleaning under the old guys foreskins? If this is the case...are you also concerned about the little old ladies labia's? Should be be doing something to make sure little old ladies are taken care of as well as circumcised men?

For the 15 and 16 year old....really, the mama in me keeps asking if those kids were even OLD enough to have made that choice..I can't see letting a 15 or 16 year old daughter get breast implants or any other elective surgery, KWIM?

As a nurse what's your take on AAP'd statement on infant circumcision and should medicaid cover elective circumcision?

As for the 5 year old...YOUCH! Poor little guy! I've never heard of a child forcably retracting themself :( most kids won't pull back beyond the point of pain.


you're comparing apples with oranges..... they're not the same.... labias protect a womens genitals and foreskin (although maybe more pleasurable) doesn't have the same affect.....

I for one have no idea what I'd do. I think I would circumsize just because I don't want it to become dirty.. I don't want my kid to feel self conscious (although that's not a good reason to circumsize)...and if you wait till their older it's much more painful. circumsion is not going to hurt them and they'll never know the difference. I think not circumsizing may cause more problems than a penis with no foreskin

[toman]

Circumcision is not going to hurt them? Huh? Maybe as long as we're at it, we should remove the testicals too. So the human body was made in such a way that without cutting part of it off, a person's health is in serious danger? How is a person who has has part of their genitals cut off not going to know the difference? I don't know about most people, but when a penis is circumcised, it's pretty obvious there has been something removed. I'm really surprised that such a community of intelligent open minded people would inflict an unnecessary and barbaric ritual on a child simply because it's the socially acceptable thing to do.

[Herbmama]

I think I would circumsize just because I don't want it to become dirty.. I don't want my kid to feel self conscious (although that's not a good reason to circumsize)...and if you wait till their older it's much more painful. circumsion is not going to hurt them and they'll never know the difference. I think not circumsizing may cause more problems than a penis with no foreskin

I feel that I have to reply to these statements.

labias protect a womens genitals and foreskin (although maybe more pleasurable) doesn't have the same affect.....

Actually the foreskin (when left intact) does protect the penis. I suggest researching the functions of the foreskin.

I think I would circumsize just because I don't want it to become dirty.. I don't want my kid to feel self conscious

Dirt really isn't an issue. In small children the foreskin is fused to the glands of the penis, in much the same way your fingernail is fussed to your finger. There really isn't any where for dirt to be, definantly less folds and creases than a labia at any rate. There is no special care, or cleaning for the intact penis.
As for feeling self conscious, currently the rate of circumsion is only at about 55% (and dropping) so intact penises will be pretty normal in the future.

circumsion is not going to hurt

Again, the foreskin is fused to the glands of the penis, much the way your fingernail is fused to your finger. In order to remove the foreskin it must first be ripped away from the glands. The amount of skin removed is almost the size of a business card and contains more than 20,000 nerve endings. I'd say that hurts pretty damn bad.

and if you wait till their older it's much more painful.

How do you know that? We can't really ask newborns how bad it hurts. At least an adult has some control over the situation..they can tell you if hurts, and ask for pain killers.

I think not circumsizing may cause more problems than a penis with no foreskin

This I just don't understand...what other body part do we remove at birth "because it might cause future problems"? Foreskins aren't dangerous, there just a body part like any other.

[toman]

Cool, information instead of assumptions and superstitions. Me likey. :hippie:

[LIBRA]

I wasnt going to say anything about this because I had my son circumsized and after I felt aweful, it did hurt him it was red and bloody and swollen for awhile and I unfortunalty did exactly what toman said others made the choice and I went along with it, I wish I hadnt, but I really didnt have my mind made up untill the day came and his father said yes, so there it was they wacked off part of my little mans penis, :bawl:
so if I were to have another boy, I wouldnt do it again, there is no reason for it, I know people who still have there foreskin and they know how to take care of, plus they say the sex is way better for both partners? personally I dont know but thats what "they" say.

so theres my input I did it and I am sorry, I think it shouldnt be an option.
why is it?? how did that come about??

[mamasharones]

Actually the foreskin (when left intact) does protect the penis. I suggest researching the functions of the foreskin.



Tell me what it protects?


Dirt really isn't an issue. In small children the foreskin is fused to the glands of the penis, in much the same way your fingernail is fussed to your finger. There really isn't any where for dirt to be, definantly less folds and creases than a labia at any rate. There is no special care, or cleaning for the intact penis.

Two pieces of skin rubbing up on each other can cause bacteria.... it's warm and most and if not taken care of properly can be gross..
If you go to http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/aap/ you will read that

"Over time, this fusion of the inner surface of the prepuce with the glans skin begins to separate by shedding the cells from the surface of each layer. Epithelial layers of the glans and the inner foreskin lining are regularly replaced, not only in infancy but throughout life. The discarded cells accumulate as whitish, cheesy ``pearls'' which gradually work their way out via the tip of the foreskin."

"Hygiene of the Fully Retracted Foreskin: For the first few years, an occasional retraction with cleansing beneath is sufficient.
Penile hygiene will later become a part of a child's total body hygiene, including hair shampooing, cleansing the folds of the ear, and brushing teeth. At puberty, the male should be taught the importance of retracting the foreskin and cleaning beneath during his daily bath."

So there is care needed for an uncircumcised penis.

Again, the foreskin is fused to the glands of the penis, much the way your fingernail is fused to your finger. In order to remove the foreskin it must first be ripped away from the glands. The amount of skin removed is almost the size of a business card and contains more than 20,000 nerve endings. I'd say that hurts pretty damn bad.


2veggiesbabe said herself her babies didn't even cry when she found a doctor to do the procedure in a manner that would be more comfortable for the babies. the problem is finding the doctor.... and as I stated before the foreskin does eventually separate from the gland.

Yes I understand that most of the world is not circumcised and I also included that the self conscious issue wasn't a valid argument but it does affect how teenagers in the world grow up. expectations of other teenage women and self image problems may affect how you're child feels about them selves. Just because most people don't do it is not a good reason to do anything. Most people hated jews back in the day doesn't make it right. if you just want to go with the flow then why do you care anyways?


We don't remove anything because of future problems....I'm just saying the over all risks of complications with having foreskin for the rest of your life out weigh the risk of complications of circumcision.

There's no need to get flustered about these things that's why it's contraversal
Frankly I don't care what you do because it's your decision.... I just want to bring to light the things you refuse to accept that are fact

[LIBRA]

Summary: Care of the uncircumcised boy is quite easy. ``Leave it alone'' is good advice. External washing and rinsing on a daily basis is all that is required. Do not retract the foreskin in an infant, as it is almost always attached to the glans. Forcing the foreskin back may harm the penis, causing pain, bleeding, and possibly adhesions. The natural separation of the foreskin from the glans may take many years. After puberty, the adult male learns to retract the foreskin and cleanse under it on a daily basis.

this was quoted from your link, did you happen to read it??
kinda makes what you said not make sense, thats just what I think though, I dont want to get beat up for it.

[toman]

It seems to me that care for an uncircumcised penis is pretty simple, consisting of little more than washing. So if washing and geinital hygene are difficult issues, than yes, cutting off the foreskin probably makes life easier. I'm going to go out on a limb here, and this may be taken as offensive. I believe the people discussing this are primarily women? Perhaps there is a lack of understanding on a woman's part regarding cutting off part of a man's genitals. To someone who doesn't have a penis, doesn't really know what one looks like or how one feels, foreskin probably seems like just a flap of skin that's not needed, and might as well be cut off if it may cause a problem. And if it can be done when the person is an infant, so he can't express pain in words or tell you he doesn't want his genitals modified, then it makes it easier for everyone. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's something to think about. Another aspect to consider is the psycological one. Anybody have any information on what effects modifying a young childs genitals can have? We make such a huge deal in this country about young children that are sexually abused; does a grown man sucking off a kid do more damage than a parent letting another grown man, supposedly an authority figure cut off part of his genitals?

[BandAide]

I have to agree, I think that it sex does make a difference in this argument, which is one of the reasons I didn't want to make a decision in circumsion.

As I've said before, I have no strong opinion on the subject, and probably for that very reason. I do not have a penis and therefor can not conceptualize what it is to have part of my penis removed. My husband and I talked about it and he had no strong feelings either way.

Medically, the argument for having your son's circumsized is not valid. Any medical professional will tell you that it has no health benefits. The uncircumsized penis is just as clean as it's naked brother. The argument for circumcision is purely psychological. Boys identify with their fathers. There's a pretty strong school of thought that says that a boy whose genitals look like his fathers will develop into a sexually healthier person because he's able to identify with his father and it gives him a greater understanding of his body. Buy that or don't... I don't care. It's not my opinion, it's just one of those things that lots and lots of psychologists think. Who knows? Not me, I don't have a penis and I didn't have any brothers.

So, the clear problem with this is that you're perpetuating an unnecessary cycle by circumsizing. For myself, when I was considering it, I really didn't want to have to make the decsion because I didn't want to have my child taken from me and have him be in pain, and I also didn't want to risk his sexual health.

So, Phew... lucky me.

There's a lot of great information in this thread. It has really helped me understand the subject better and do a little independent research.

[Herbmama]

Tell me what it protects?

Protective
10
Prevents the glans becoming keratinised, and keeps it soft and moist

11
Protects the thin-skinned glans against injury

12
Protects the nerves of the glans, retaining their erotic function

13
In infancy, protects the urethra against contamination, meatal stenosis, (and UTIs?)

14
Provides lysosomes for bacteriostatic action around the glans

15
Pigmented, it protects the unpigmented glans against sunburn

16
Vascular (rich in blood vessels that bring heat to the tissues), it protects the less vascular glans against frostbite, as Sir Ranulph Fiennes found on his epic transpolar walk.

(taken from 17 functions of the Foreskin of the Foreskin http://www.circumstitions.com/Functions.html)




Two pieces of skin rubbing up on each other can cause bacteria.... it's warm and most and if not taken care of properly can be gross..
If you go to http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/aap/ you will read that

"Over time, this fusion of the inner surface of the prepuce with the glans skin begins to separate by shedding the cells from the surface of each layer. Epithelial layers of the glans and the inner foreskin lining are regularly replaced, not only in infancy but throughout life. The discarded cells accumulate as whitish, cheesy ``pearls'' which gradually work their way out via the tip of the foreskin." (Emphasis mine)

if you had of read further down on the page you would have found this:

Foreskin Hygiene: The foreskin is easy to care for. The infant should be bathed or sponged frequently, and all parts should be washed including the genitals. The uncircumcised penis is easy to keep clean. No special care is required! No attempt should be made to forcibly retract the foreskin. No manipulation is necessary. There is no need for special cleansing with Q-tips, irrigation, or antiseptics; soap and water externally will suffice.

Those are the same as the discarded cells that accumulate under the clitoral hood, they wipe away or soak out in the bath.



"Hygiene of the Fully Retracted Foreskin: For the first few years, an occasional retraction with cleansing beneath is sufficient.
Penile hygiene will later become a part of a child's total body hygiene, including hair shampooing, cleansing the folds of the ear, and brushing teeth. At puberty, the male should be taught the importance of retracting the foreskin and cleaning beneath during his daily bath."

So there is care needed for an uncircumcised penis. (Again emphasis mine)

Note that this is reffering to the "Fully Retracted Foreskin", retraction as I mentioned in my last post occurs near sexual maturity.




2veggiesbabe said herself her babies didn't even cry when she found a doctor to do the procedure in a manner that would be more comfortable for the babies. the problem is finding the doctor.... and as I stated before the foreskin does eventually separate from the gland.

Of couse the foreskin eventually seperates from the glands, this is one of the reasons I think circumcision should be done on adults if wanted not children.
I am thrilled that 2veggiesbabe's son didn't seem to suffer during the proceedure. However I can't believe (no matter how much I'd like to) that they felt no pain at all through out the healing process.

Yes I understand that most of the world is not circumcised and I also included that the self conscious issue wasn't a valid argument but it does affect how teenagers in the world grow up. expectations of other teenage women and self image problems may affect how you're child feels about them selves. Just because most people don't do it is not a good reason to do anything.

I should have clarified, 55% is the U.S. Circumcision rate. The world rate is much lower, around 20%.

Most people hated jews back in the day doesn't make it right. if you just want to go with the flow then why do you care anyways?

Sorry, I can't for the life of me figure out what your trying to say with this comment. :confused:


We don't remove anything because of future problems....I'm just saying the over all risks of complications with having foreskin for the rest of your life out weigh the risk of complications of circumcision

It seems to me you ARE saying we should remove the foreskin just incase of future problems. Maybe you can explain to me what your saying if I'm incorrect here.

There's no need to get flustered about these things that's why it's contraversal

I'm not flustered in the least. I thought I had responded in a calm, fair, factual manner. I'm sorry if you didn't feel so.

Frankly I don't care what you do because it's your decision.... I just want to bring to light the things you refuse to accept that are fact

This confuses me. If you go back and reread my earlier post you'll find the research you supplied supports everything I said.

[Herbmama]

Yes I understand that most of the world is not circumcised and I also included that the self conscious issue wasn't a valid argument but it does affect how teenagers in the world grow up. expectations of other teenage women and self image problems may affect how you're child feels about them selves. Just because most people don't do it is not a good reason to do anything. Most people hated jews back in the day doesn't make it right. if you just want to go with the flow then why do you care anyways?

Oh...I think I get what your trying to say here.

I didn't bring up the dropping circ rates to say "everybodies doing! so should you!" I was responding to your comment about intact boys being self conscious. With the U.S. circ rate at 55% I don't think anyone is going to feel out of place for having a foreskin.

[2veggiebabes]

Just to clarify from my previous post I said "preformed a almost painless circumcision" "Recovery did not seem to effect them as well."

The reason I say almost painless is because I also can not believe there was no pain, this is a procedure involving removal of a body part!

Related to the recovery I also did not say it was totally painless. I know at this time it is a open wound which requires care and during the routine care they never fused. This does not mean that they felt nothing it only tells me the healing was well tolerated.

[WelfareCheese99]

If the foreskin wasn"t supposed to be there, male babies would not be born with it. Think about it.....
It is simply due to mans egotistical nature that circumcision has become the norm. We become victims of culture, religion, and tradition (habits!), and thereby do barbaric things like remove parts of a little boys penises with razors. The procedure is cruel and very painful. And for what??? To look like other men? I would hope that people who call themselves "hippies" would not subject their little boys to penile mutilation in order to fit "the norm". With enlightened people such as you, this should not even be an issue.
All it takes is proper cleaning and education!
By the way, I am a circumcised father of 2 UNcircumcised boys.

[toman]

I'm thinking about circumcising my ass.

[LIBRA]

I am not a man and have no penis so I couldnt imagin that aspect, but if cutting the clitoris off or my nipples were considered normal practice at birth that would SUCK!!!! so all in all its bad, and if you have something hanging from your ass to be circumsized thats bad too :p

and mamasharone, no offense really but your statements were very contradicting, like you didnt read what you quoted at all, it felt like you were arguing for the sake of an argument, but really no offense at all, so please dont take it the wrong way, just wanted you to know.

I almost forgot, when they did that to my son and I had to take care of it, you bet it hurt him it was bloody and pussy and plan old ouch!! I know it hurt him I had to goop it with oinment so it wouldnt stick to his diaper and how is that safer then just letting it be? he cried everytime Id put ointment on it so it hurts and they know, baby or not! there was definitly risk of infection and the care and cleaning of it was painful, just leave it and its fine.

[Candy]

I am quite surprised at how many people today are ill informed when it comes to circumcision.
There are different types of female mutilation. Female circumcision is just the removal of the clitoral hood. No other parts. The clitoral hood does the same job for the clitoris that the foreskin does for the penis. It protects it. At one time removal of the clitoral hood was done for the exact same reasons removal of the foreskin is done. The belief that it was cleaner and healthier. Today, as someone mentioned, routine infant female circumcision is illegal. There are women that have it removed as adults as they claim it enhances sexual pleasure, so it is not completely illegal. Female mutilation where there are parts removed or sewen up is completely illegal in most countries.
Routine male circumcision is not done with anything to relieve the pain as it is a danger to the infant.
http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/plastibell/
The site is graphic as it includes pictures of a circumcision.
Yes I understand that most of the world is not circumcised and I also included that the self conscious issue wasn't a valid argument but it does affect how teenagers in the world grow up. expectations of other teenage women and self image problems may affect how you're child feels about them selves.
Up to 80% of the world is not circumcised. That means that there are a great many teen boys not circumcised and teen females are dealing with it quite well looking at the rate of teens having sex. Expectations of teen females is not how the penis looks, but rather how it works.
I have had sex with both uncircumcised and circumcised males. There is a difference and my preference is uncircumcised. As for how it looks, I think a penis is ugly to start with, either way.
I do think it should be illegal for anyone to have their infant, male or female, circumcised for no medical reason whatsoever.
I did have my son circumcised due to lack of information. When I had him it was routinely done in the hospital. You signed a paper with little information or misinformation and they just did it. I would not have it done today with all the information out there on circumcision. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to have a healthy perfect boy altered to look the way some in society think he should look. Its his penis and if he decides to get it done when he can medically and legally make that choice, thats fine.

[LIBRA]

WOW, that was horrifying, absolutley, I couldnt even watch it all, I am gonna go home and hug my little boy I feel awefull for having him circumsized, I did before that and now I really do.
I will never have another child circumsized, I too did it the first time due to lack of information which was completley ignorant on my part, I just thought it was the thing to do.
That was horrible, my heart hurts or something, that really shook me.

[Candy]

Don't feel bad now. You did what you did with the information available to you at the time. Do not feel guilty because doctors, hospitals and society in general led you to believe you had to have your son circumcised. It was common practice, that the world is trying to abolish now. And for good reason. I repeat, do not feel bad or guilty. Now you know the facts and can help others in the future.
The site is pretty graphic for those who have a look. If you have never seen a circumcision done you really do not want to. If you are having a boy you may want to take a look so you are well informed.

[BandAide]

exhale.

Yeah. That just made me sick.

Though the blood is gross, what actually upset me the most was seeing the restraints on this baby's thighs.

This thread has really helped me. When I first posted on the subject I didn't have any idea what I'd do if I were having a boy. After learning a little bit about circumcision, I most certainly would not choose it.

[Dead Fan]

Im jewish so I pretty much popped out and they cut it off. I dont see it as a big deal. I guess the decision goes to the parents.

[lyttllbyrd]

I am not even going to watch that web connection on circumsicion because it sounds real gruesome. My son was born in 1987...Back then everyone had their son's circumsized. I remember the nurse coming in after he was born asking me to sighn all kinds of paperwrk and assuming I would let them do that...I said expressly no...Because I had read and knew there was no real need to have that done nowaday's. I think that back in the ancient times it was good to have done for hygeine reasons...People did'nt bathe with such heavy soaps and bathing in some areas of the world may not have been easy...Especially in the cold winter months if all you had was the lake you were living next too. Or if you lived in a big "city" of sorts and were a slaving servant...Or even in colonial times people bathed maybe once a week if you were wealthy...In any event I got my first tatoo in 1986...These things I chose to do back when not many were doing...I remember the dirty look the nurse gave me as if I did not love my son for not having him circumsized and I told her that when he was old enough he could decide...Because it was his penis...I don't know if I had spared him the pain because my son was given up for adoption...I chose the parents...His father was ill prepared and I was not at all financially or emotionally prepared...So I thought...What I did't expect was the horrifying greif afterwards...(another story)...But I don't know if the adoptive parents had it done...He is 18 now and just in Feburary he found out he was adopted.
He is a full member of my tribe now...I tried to contact him but no luck yet...Garuntee I will be curious if his adoptive parents had it done...But it is
not a priority question...It would be too embaressing to ask...What is done is done...All I want is his health and happiness...In colonial times rich people used to powder their hair instead of washing it regular...Can you imagine how yuk their britches were...YUK!!!! get my drift. :p

[toman]

Good lord, my eyes.

[wallumi]

As for how it looks, I think a penis is ugly to start with, either way.

:(



Otherwise, I cannot fault your analysis. :)

[animus]

I thought maybe you would like to hear my opinion -- I am an intact male, and I can probably provide some insight on this.

Firstly, the whole load of BS about a guy having to look like his dad: My dad is circumcised -- I am not. When I was much younger, I thought nothing of it. And why should I? my hair was blond, and his was black -- so why shouldn't other parts of the body differ as well? Parents that cut of parts of their baby's body to make them look the same -- are stupid. I'm sorry if this hurts anyone's feelings, but this is a dumb reason and you know it -- the sooner we get past this the sooner we can resolve this stupid debate.

The intact penis requires essentially no care. The foreskin separates on its own, and smegma washes away basically to never be seen again. Problems associated with foreskins and washing are rare. Even if you never wash your penis the most that comes of it is a smell -- which is really the same with girls' vaginas.

About bacteria: There is bacterial ALL over our bodies. Even when you wash you don't get rid of them all -- much of this bacteria is beneficial -- yes, there is bacteria under the foreskin, but there is also bacteria in the mouth, in your large intestine, and in many many other places. Often these bacteria perform a role or function that is necessary for our bodies to work right. As for the bacteria under the foreskin, I imagine that it serves to prevent other microbes (eg: yeast or bad bacteria) from taking over. This is the same as with the woman's vagina -- What!?!? women have bacteria in their vagina?!?! Yes, they do, in fact I bet they have more bacteria in their vagina than guys have under their foreskin. Have you ladies ever gotten yeast infections? This is what happens when the bacteria in your vagina get out of balance and over run by yeast. So, which do you prefer yeast or bacteria? Or maybe we should just cut the vagina out so that we have neither?

On washing: I don't spend any more time washing my intact penis than I spend washing any other part of my body. The argument that it's easier to wash is nonsense. Hands are much much dirty than intact penises, but we don't "cut them off so they're easier to wash". Come on people, let's stop lying to ourselves here.

Now let's move to the heart of the matter on circumcision. You know what, I have absolutely no problem with an individual deciding to get circumcised BUT:

1. Doing it to babies or children is stupid. We all know it's stupid so let's just swallow our pride and admit it. We wouldn't cut off our babies' hands would we? They would probably be a lot cleaner if they didn't have hands -- they wouldn't be able to stick all that dirty stuff off the floor in their mouths.

2. I'm pretty tired of hearing all this nonsense "intact penises are dirty and smell bad" from the pro-circumcision crowd. You know what? I'm pretty sure vagina's can (and do) smell just as bad as penises. You don't have to trash my penis just because you're insecure with your decision to be circ'd or want circ'd penises.

Now I'm going to tell you a little anecdote.

At one time in my life I knew hardly anything about circumcision. Apart from jews, I thought it was very rare. But everything changed when I started talking on the internet to an american girl -- somehow the topic came up, and she (not knowing I was intact) made a number of very rude comments. I was basically told I was disgusting and I would never get a girl.

This was 4 years ago -- and since then I've been searching for some kind of sanity -- someone that isn't stupid -- and I find a few, but I can never get past all the misinformation. I hear the same arguments all the time -- seriously -- go research circumcision, every argument used in this forum has been used a million times before.

You can't justify cutting off a functional part of a baby's body. These medical benefits are blown out of proportion - or completely non-existent.

"the foreskin serves no purpose" they shout -- what?!? where did you read this? oh, on a pro-circ website. You can justifiably say that _many_ parts of the body serve no purpose. Just because you can live without a part on your body does not mean that it serves no purpose. You can live without eyes, arms, ears, noses -- there are so many that could be listed -- does this mean that we should cut off our noses?

And what about treating a problem WHEN it occurs? Why don't we just wait until these foreskin problems occur before we cut it off? It's a well known fact that most problems that actually require circumcision are rare. There's a much greater chance women are going to get breast cancer -- maybe all girls should have their breasts removed?

Being an intact male is the absolute worst position to be in. Everyone goes around saying how dirty, smelly, unhygienic, and medically unsafe we are. We spread cancer to our partners, don't last as long in bed, and nobody wants to give us blowjobs (all nonsense lies).

Intact penises don't smell any more than a woman's vagina. I could argue that vaginas smell worse, but I'm not going to -- that would be stupid -- let's just leave it at this, okay?

Hate is a good word to describe the feelings inside of me. For the last year or two I've been giving serious thought to getting circumcised -- not because I honestly believe I would benefit from it -- but because I've grown to hate myself, and hate the ABSOLUTE SELFISH IGNORANCE of others to such an extent -- that the only visible solution is to cut the damn thing off.

It would be an act of spite -- and maybe it would be stupid -- but who cares? Nobody that I know of -- certainly not society.


But in closing,

If you want to be circumcised, or if you like circumsised penises, that's okay, but please, for the love of god:

1. Quit doing it to defenseless babies and children. Nobody is going to take you seriously when you're hacking away at children without giving them a choice. If circumcision is so great then let your sons choose on their OWN. Adult circumcision is quite a lot easier/safer to perform, and hurts less (because better forms of pain suppression can be used).

2. Quit spreading around lies and misinformation. The logic and reasoning used is horribly weak, and I feel stupider just reading some of the arguments used by pro-circ people. I'm not going to be sympathetic towards you because you're always insulting my penis.

I guess I'll forever be searching for sanity.
Peace.

[moonjava]

i never knew that circumcision was such a big deal and a touchy subject. And don't worry animus (and others like him), there are definitely women out there who don't give a shit either way :)
i hate blood so i'm not going to watch the link. the little i've gathered from this thread..well, i think it's up to the individual when he is mature enough to make a decision.
peace

[animus]

Oh, I know, I'm just -- being melodramatic -- as usual.

Probably roused by the fact that I accidentally found this thread -- circumcision -- the topic that I just can't hide from.

:-)

[Unkle_John]

I was circumcised when I was an infant. A common medical pratice of the time. I, in no way feel that I was cheated out of something. I'm glad it happened to me. Now these are my feelings, if you want your son to make that decision, then that is your right and his. But I for one am glad it was done. It stays cleaner and it's easier to put a rubber on. I do get a spot on one side that itches from time to time..where the foreskin would have connected to the shaft. But I put some lotion on it and it's fine.

[toman]

jeeze... animus is aroused and john's putting lotion on himself... this thread's in the gutter. :D

[Unkle_John]

....I can't help it if it needs to be rubbed in. :o

[room85]

I am very confused about this subject.

I understand that there is no medical reason to have boys circumsized, but I also understand that it is healthy socially and sexually for a boy to have a penis that looks like his Dad's.

I have my ultrasound to find out if I'm having a boy or a girl on Wed. and I've been agonizing about what to do regarding circumcision if I have a boy.

Though I do not have an opinion regarding the matter yet, I would like to touch on the difference between female circumcision and male circumcision. The two are very different procedures. Countries that practice female circumcision often use blunt objects and offer no medical care. Women are circumcized to dull the nerve endings in the clitorus, thus making it impossible for them to derrive pleasure from sex. Because this is not cared for medically, little girls frequently die from the procedure. Men are circumcized for aesthetics only. There is little risk of death or even complications is slim. You can't really compare the two, other than that they are both altering the genitals. But the function, purpose and result of both is different.
totally agree with you....you just can't compare. My sister has a friend who had the circumcision, she hates sex and anything related to it because after the circumcision it is imposible for females to have pleasure during sex,it's very painful(at least tha's what she says).
on the other I got a friend who had the circumcision when he was a baby and he is a normal sexual active male. doesn't complain at all
As long as it doesn't damage the boy in any sense, I think it is ok to go with it.

[treehugger]

Hate is a good word to describe the feelings inside of me. For the last year or two I've been giving serious thought to getting circumcised -- not because I honestly believe I would benefit from it -- but because I've grown to hate myself, and hate the ABSOLUTE SELFISH IGNORANCE of others to such an extent -- that the only visible solution is to cut the damn thing off.

It would be an act of spite -- and maybe it would be stupid -- but who cares? Nobody that I know of -- certainly not society.


I guess I'll forever be searching for sanity.
Peace.


Don't do it!!!! One of my ex's is intact...and he was a damn good lover, to boot!

Hmmm...wonder if he's busy.... ;) :teufel021

[LIBRA]

Oh dont do it!! Relax your self, most of us agree with you!! I would never do it again, if I have another son that is.

And I agree with the good lover part too, intact= :D

you'll find sanity when your happy with yourself as you are!!

[Candy]

Room85
You are mixing up female mutilation and female circumcision.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision[/HTML]
A Clitoridotomy is compared to a male circumcision as it is only the removal of the clitoral hood. Some women have this done to ENHANCE sexual pleasure. If you click on the above www address you can read the different types of mutilation that are done to a female. You will also read that female circumcison, removal of the clitoral hood, was done for the same reasons males were done, it was cleaner and it would stop the child from masturbating. Like the clitoral hood, there is a use for the foreskin in boys. The foreskin is needed to protect the glands on the penis.
As for being cleaner, I have not found that circumcised men are cleaner. They are the same. You just have to bathe regularily. My husband has never had a problem putting on a condom.
I did date a man who was not circumcised at birth but due to an infection he had to be circumcised at age 24. He hates it. He claims there is less feeling during sexual intercourse, his penis becomes irriated more and he feels he has to clean his penis more than he did before. He showers daily but finds after sex he also has to wash it, or after playing sports.
I personally feel that routine male circumcision is male mutilation and there is absolutely no medical reason for it at all. Why remove perfectly healthy tissue that the body needs? As for religious or cultural reasons, there are other things that are done for religious and cultural reasons that are against the law in our society.

[phamilygirl]

As a nurse I've seen the down side of both sides of the issue. I've seen the neglectful care of elderly men and side effects of having foreskin, and then again i've witnessed circumcisions of babies where there was no analgesia. I think its up to the parents, but I also believe they should witness the procedure. It might make them think twice, or at least be an advocate for pain control.

Much Love